The canon material that doesn't really fit

[Agamemnon]

So, I was browsing through the Ravenloft forum over at Wizards, and I came upon this thread: Which dark lords do you find questionable

I decided to drag the topic over here, where it's all Ravenloft, all day and all night, and even expand a bit on its premise.

I think it raises some interesting questions, since Ravenloft has always seemed to me a bit of a grab-bag, kitchen-sink setting, where the creators threw in anything even remotely connected to horror, despite the claims that Ravenloft was to be a gothic-inspired low magic fantasy setting.

That being the case, there will be some darklords or other villainous NPCs in Ravenloft and other canon material that are less than inspired.

So what do you think? Which darklords, NPCs and/or domains would you change or even give the axe to completely in the Ravenloft setting?

Cheers.

[Isabella]

Anything from Champions of Darkness or Heroes of Light.

I actually like many of the Heroes of Light NPCs, but reading backgrounds like Eia Pax you have to wonder if the author read anything on the Morninglord before typing it up.

[DeepShadow of FoS]

From RLDMG, the Living Saw (basically a magical chainsaw, but specifically for cutting up people)

[Jester of the FoS]

Requiem. That whole three-part adventure series was poop on a stick. Forged of Darkness was "eh" too.

[ewancummins]

The following things never worked for me:

Bluetspur

Arak with drow population ( old version)

Vecna and Kas in Ravenloft, and their domains

Necropolis

[Strahdsbuddy]

The following things never worked for me:

Bluetspur

Arak with drow population ( old version)

Vecna and Kas in Ravenloft, and their domains

Necropolis

I agree with all of those except Bluetspur. Perhaps not as part of The Core, but the way Mangrum uses the Illithids in "The Man WHo Lost His Mind" shows that the completely alien is totally terrifying.

Vecna was a terrible addition to the setting, and the creation of a faux darklord just so Vecna would have a domain to war against was further proof that it just didn't belong!

[cure]

The very idea of Bluetspur of course begs the question of what precisely does a god-brain have to do that makes it worthy, over and against any of its fellows, of darklordship. And for my two wolf's fangs, the effort to give the godbrain a human past in an attempt to answer this question and to meet gothic requirements of being able to identify with the villan, was a hopeless attempt to plaster over a wall sized hole.

That said, illithids are wonderfully horrifying creatures and I am very fond of Lovecraft. And insisting that neither is applicable to Ravenloft at the domain level, is not to foreclose the possibility of them existing at more local levels or, alternatively, beyond the confines of any given domain. Or if one wants to go further still, have them working to seize possession of Ravenloft away from the Dark Powers themselves for their own dark, if less obscure, ends.

[DocBeard]

Vecna was a terrible addition to the setting, and the creation of a faux darklord just so Vecna would have a domain to war against was further proof that it just didn't belong!

I thought Kas was a part of Vecna's story way before either was brought into Ravenloft?

Anyway, I'm of the opinion that just about anything can be made playable with a little work and gumption. There are a ton of things I'd change about the setting, sure, but I don't think anything in D&D should be excised from Ravenloft entirely. Lots of things that we see as "too fantasy to be scary" just need to be explored in the right way.

Like, take the Underdark as presented in 4E. Straight up caves might not be thrilling, but what about all of those old ruins and mysterious sewers? Or the hollow ground beneath Martia Bay? Heck, maybe that's where Paridon went; the sins of Sodo caused the earth itself to reach up and consume the great city as though covering a sore with a scab. The Feywild makes a much better place for the Shadow Rift than a hunk of the Core being ripped out, and maybe Necropolis is a realm half in the Shadowfell and Death its newborn primordial master, trying to chew through reality and make his dream city of the dead a grim reality. Githyanki and other astral horrors could draw on the rich UFO mythology of today; strange visitations, missing time, sinister humanoids in bright silver suits appearing as a flimsy memory that might have been planted by the real alien threat to disguise itself...

And all of these menaces can reflect the very human emotions that made up the core of the Gothic movement. Many of the tricks used to make players see a threat as more than just another vampire can be used to make a player think of a threat as so much more than a random frost giant.

The very idea of Bluetspur of course begs the question of what precisely does a god-brain have to do that makes it worthy, over and against any of its fellows, of darklordship. And for my two wolf's fangs, the effort to give the godbrain a human past in an attempt to answer this question and to meet gothic requirements of being able to identify with the villan, was a hopeless attempt to plaster over a wall sized hole.

Sorry to edit but this gave me an idea I felt I should share.

What if It was the God-Brain that came up with the idea of deceiving the mind flayers about the nature of their absorption into the God-Brain?

For those that don't know, the closest thing a mind flayer has to a sense of "heaven" is its brain being absorbed by its communal god-brain, which serves as a sort of living computer, storing the collective memories and knowledge of the mind flayers. They believe that when you are absorbed, your mind lives on forever in a blissful union with the ancestors, forever combing all the knowledge of the cosmos and a vital part of the gestalt mind that composes the god-brain.

This is a lie.

In reality, the mind flayer is absorbed like anything else a god-brain eats, completely and utterly. Each god-brain is one core sentience that fakes being a gestalt mind because, well, the alternative is a civil war that would obliterate the illithid race. So, what if the sin our God-Brain committed was coming up with the whole, "fake an afterlife" idea? Perhaps even then it held heterical ideas of devolving back to a mobile being, and thought that the constant diet of memories would give it something resembling its previous identity. Maybe it developed these ideas afterward, as the guilt of centuries of crushed dreams weighed on its mind, but its current position as an immobile, utterly isolated parasite seems like a fitting punishment for a being that undermined the core value of its society, even if that society is something as horrible as the mind flayers.

[cure]

Well, this has already been treated in forum, so I won't go into all the gory details here and I invite anyone who cares to do a search and weigh them yourself, but the Scientist class as written always struck me as glossly untrue to the positivism incarnated by Victor Mordenhiem and the domain that goes with him. What was needed was a Mad Scientist class, that violently rejects magic and supernatural, even as the Dark Power secretly unwrite its most dangerous and presumptious ambitions. Instead we got a class that simply took over the existing magic system while declaring that a power source made it unmagical.

[Agamemnon]

I think the problem with Bluetspur, and a lot of other domains for that matter, is that it doesn't really fit the supposedly Gothic ambience and flavour of Ravenloft.

It's a realm with an alien landscape, nothing recognizably human, and thunderstorms and lighting strikes that threaten to turn you to ash every second. Not exactly subtle. Add to that that the inhabitants are all psionically endowed alien squid-headed monstrosities that eat brains. Yeah...

Maybe it could be great for another setting, but I have a hard time fitting Bluetspur or illithids in general into a Shelley/Byronesque setting.

Unfortunately Bluetspur isn't the only domain that violates all the Ravenloft setting's own calls for subtlety and adherence to the Gothic tradition. I mean, in every edition of Ravenloft, there's been a lengthy introduction about what Gothic horror is, and what Fantasy Horror is, complete with examples, and yet we get domains like Bluetspur...

... or domains where a border closure is signalled by a giant wall of flame...

... or massive heap of skulls reaching all the way to heaven...

... or giant oil paintings...

Anyway, enough belly-aching and to the point of the thread:

I think personally I could do without a lot of the official darklords, but many of these are probably so ill-conceived that nobody uses them, so there is no point in mentioning them.

As for the more normal darklords and domains that have been a part of the setting ever since Ravenloft's inception, which I don't happen to ever have found a use for, I'd probably say:

Captain Monette
Other than for attacking lone sailors stranded on his beach, I just don't see much use for him. His background is also moderately boring.

Malken
He just seems so... pointless, and Nova Vaasa isn't a very interesting realm.

Harkon Lukas
Yeah, I know, he's popular, but I never really did get the idea behind wolfweres ("hey, ain't it cool? We reversed the order of the words in werewolf, so now we've got a brand new monster!"), and Kartakass the Land of Singers makes no sense.

Hazlik
I can't really put my finger on it, I just don't like him. Maybe it's because he isn't very scary.

Jaqueline Renier
Not a big fan of wererats.

Arijani
A tigerman? With illusionary powers? C'mon... I'm not too crazy about an Indian-flavoured domain, either. Indian-flavoured food on the other hand... yum!

Malus Sceleri
I guess this is again one of those "doesn't really fit with the setting"-type of things. A polluting, capitalist fat cat is a really subtle political message... or not.

Elena Faith-hold
She's a fallen paladin in a domain called Nidala, which is almost Paladin spelled backwards. ARGHHH!

Lemot Sediam Juste
My main problem with him is that adventures in Scaena are just too weird and without cause and effect, which always sounds better than it really is.

I guess that's it.

Cheers.

[Gonzoron of the FoS]

Like DocBeard, I'm a firm believer that just about anything can be salvaged by a dedicated DM. Of course, some take more work than others...

I think the problem with Bluetspur...
Maybe it could be great for another setting, but I have a hard time fitting Bluetspur or illithids in general into a Shelley/Byronesque setting.

Definitely read Mangrum's work on the subject if you haven't, like strahdsbuddy said. Also Ari 'Mousferatu' Marmell's Bluetspur short story on the wotc site. Bluetspur is best used in glimpses and rumors. It should be a distant place beyond imagining that somehow intrudes on "reality". Why it was ever in the Core is a mystery.

Harkon Lukas
Yeah, I know, he's popular, but I never really did get the idea behind wolfweres ("hey, ain't it cool? We reversed the order of the words in werewolf, so now we've got a brand new monster!"), and Kartakass the Land of Singers makes no sense.

Have you read Gazetteer I's attempt to make it make sense? I think it did an admirable job of making the land make sense, as well as give a unique character to wolfweres other than anti-werewolves.

Elena Faith-hold
She's a fallen paladin in a domain called Nidala, which is almost Paladin spelled backwards. ARGHHH!

Holy cow, you just blew my mind. I spent years researching Nidala for my campaign, I thought I knew all there was to know about the place... and I never noticed that. D'oh!

[Deewun]

I am of one mind with DocBeard and Gonzoron. I view Ravenloft like a long comic book tradition. Part of the fun is taking all the existing content and then adding to, never taking away.

Docbeard, that is some GREAT thoughts on a 4e Ravenloft's existance. I love it! And I plan on stealing it. I'd quote it for truth, but it is just too much good stuff.

[Agamemnon]

Like DocBeard, I'm a firm believer that just about anything can be salvaged by a dedicated DM. Of course, some take more work than others...

Sure, any creative DM/GM can get ideas out of anything given enough time and energy, but that being said I would rather spend time working with good background material to create a fantastic story or scenario than spend a lot of time working with bad material to create something semi-decent or slightly above average. All else being equal, I think I could create more exciting adventures in Barovia or Falkovnia than in Bluetspur or Vechor.

Definitely read Mangrum's work on the subject if you haven't, like strahdsbuddy said. Also Ari 'Mousferatu' Marmell's Bluetspur short story on the wotc site. Bluetspur is best used in glimpses and rumors. It should be a distant place beyond imagining that somehow intrudes on "reality". Why it was ever in the Core is a mystery.

Yeah, I never got that either. There were a lot of strangely placed domains in the Core in Ravenloft's first incarnation. I agree that Bluetspur could conceivably work better as a very alien realm, far distant from "normal" Ravenloft, akin to an alien dimension or planet in a cosmic horror universe. It just doesn't fit with the rest of the setting.

Have you read Gazetteer I's attempt to make it make sense? I think it did an admirable job of making the land make sense, as well as give a unique character to wolfweres other than anti-werewolves.

I read it long ago, but I must admit that I stopped "updating" my Ravenloft after Arthaus took over. I was never too fond of the changes made to the setting at that time, and as I have never played Ravenloft with D&D rules in any incarnation (I have always used other systems and translated the stats myself; right now I use Savage Worlds), there was no pressing need for me to follow the official line.

I can't really remember what was done to Kartakass in the Arthaus edition, maybe because the realm never really grabbed me. I do remember that I was less than impressed with the new write-up for Hazlan, and I wasn't all that happy with Falkovnia moving away from emulating late medieval/Renaissance Wallachia over to the Third Reich. Unfortunately, it seems to have stuck. Whenever I read posts from people discussing Vlad Drakov, they always write things like: "He's like the Hitler of Ravenloft!"
I even saw somewhere that he was referred to as King-Führer. I think that is a great disservice to one of the better villains of the setting, and not really appropriate for a medieval/Renaissance world, but de gustibus non est disputandum. I guess it works for some people. I usually stick with his Vlad Tepes image from the Black Box in my adventures.

Holy cow, you just blew my mind. I spent years researching Nidala for my campaign, I thought I knew all there was to know about the place... and I never noticed that. D'oh!

Yeah, it hurts when you see it, doesn't it? I think I will rename Barovia to Eripmav in my next campaign.

Cheers

[cure]

What if It was the God-Brain that came up with the idea of deceiving the mind flayers about the nature of their absorption into the God-Brain?

For those that don't know, the closest thing a mind flayer has to a sense of "heaven" is its brain being absorbed by its communal god-brain, which serves as a sort of living computer, storing the collective memories and knowledge of the mind flayers. They believe that when you are absorbed, your mind lives on forever in a blissful union with the ancestors, forever combing all the knowledge of the cosmos and a vital part of the gestalt mind that composes the god-brain.

This is a lie.

In reality, the mind flayer is absorbed like anything else a god-brain eats, completely and utterly. Each god-brain is one core sentience that fakes being a gestalt mind because, well, the alternative is a civil war that would obliterate the illithid race. So, what if the sin our God-Brain committed was coming up with the whole, "fake an afterlife" idea? Perhaps even then it held heterical ideas of devolving back to a mobile being, and thought that the constant diet of memories would give it something resembling its previous identity. Maybe it developed these ideas afterward, as the guilt of centuries of crushed dreams weighed on its mind, but its current position as an immobile, utterly isolated parasite seems like a fitting punishment for a being that undermined the core value of its society, even if that society is something as horrible as the mind flayers.

There is a good thread on the forum here that I don't have time to do find just now, that explores this and related suggestions on what precisely our god-brain did to find itself in its current predicament. As I recall, looks at the matter from the related angle of failing power checks.

Ok, here it is: http://www.fraternityofshadows.com/foru ... in&start=0

[Scipion_Emilien]

Bluetspur was never really a problem for me since it is far.

Some PrC from hero of light or Champion of darkness are really average.

In general, I feel that the gazetteer made a good job of bringing all those hodge-podge domains together in a coherent setting. (Heck the dales of FR seem so artificial in comparison.)

The things I would change would be:

Nova Vaasa.
Heres a big domain with a lot of space to work. There is a good feodal hierarchy that have space to be developed with a strong religion that try to legitimize the thing. The domain is just plain perfect for good old feodal intrigue and story of exiles princes who try to come back to get their throne. Yet what do we have? Malken, a relatively bland darklord. I would really prefer to have Othmar as a Darklord with a curse that made it impossible for him to rule the country like he wish (hence the intrigues).

Expanding the politics of Nova Vaasa is one of my goal I wish to do when I will have the time and if there is an interest for it. (From what I understood few people play in Nova Vaasa.)

Hazlan

The domain is fine by itself, an while hazlik isn't the most original darklord, I think he still bring a little something to the setting. My biggest beef is with the geographical position of Hazlan. It just feel wrong to have that exotic oriental domain in the center of 4 western european domains. It seem less exotic when Nova Vaasa and Barovia can easily trade with it.

The Amber Waste cluster

The Egyptian domain is to small for what I wished. I would have like to have it bigger to have more room to play with it. He is fine for touch of death, but I have this nagging feeling that since this adventure, there is more explorers that get here than actual inhabitants. And the neighborhood ain't that interesting. Rather than neolithic people and arabian like tribe, I would have prefer to have a mesopotamian domain with which Pharazia could have interacted.

As for the rest there is often a need for more information (since I started in 3e there is alot of domains that I don't really know like the nightmare land and the various cluster/isle of terror.)

There is often many small things that I find out of place (and if I remember them I will post them here), but as a whole I have the impression that the Ravenloft setting work very well together.