Technology and culture in your campaigns

[ewancummins]

Oh, my Ravenloft is still a mix of elements, but it is much a melange as a patchwork quilt. The elements from multiple worlds are still there- I've just blurred the edges, deepened the histories, and tied things together more fully- with the Core domains, at any rate. It's an ongoing process. I find that this approach leads to a much more satisfying gaming experience. YMMV

[DeepShadow of FoS]

Richemulot is even worse. Jaqueline Renier is actually wearing roaring '20s flapper dress.

Is she, or is she just wearing a dress that resembles one? Couldn't many different circumstances yield a similar fashion with regard to dresses without touching other issues. After all, she doesn't have bobbed hair.

[Agamemnon]

She is wearing a dress resembling one, and wearing headgear to match. Richemulaise society is, as far as I recall, a Renaissance society (real Renaissance, not what the rules call Renaissance), so my argument is not that the Land of Rich Fieldmouse is a 1920's domain, but rather that I find it enormously silly and aesthetically unappealing having modern cultural conventions like e.g. mass production, psychiatry and late 19th to early 20th century garb in a predominantly late medieval/Renaissance world, which is also the kind of world that D&D best emulates.

It is my contention that as a D&D setting, Ravenloft was originally meant to be a medieval world with touches of Renaissance culture. Supplements and later editions have gradually changed that, but it is not a change I appreciate, personally.

Now, the question remains: does it really matter? No, it doesn't. The players are unlikely ever to see any illustrations, and I can describe NPCs the way I want, so it won't ever come up in a game.

The modern paraphenalia are just one of the reasons I gave for my dislike of the highest cultural levels in Ravenloft, which pertains to the topic at hand: I have house-ruled that Ravenloft is culturally equivalent to the late Middle Ages and Renaissance and below (because that's what I like), and I wanted to know how others handled the cultural levels in Ravenloft campaigns, if indeed they did anything.

TTFN

[Ail]

Richemulot is even worse. Jaqueline Renier is actually wearing roaring '20s flapper dress.

Is she, or is she just wearing a dress that resembles one? Couldn't many different circumstances yield a similar fashion with regard to dresses without touching other issues. After all, she doesn't have bobbed hair.

Yes, well, now.... that does put it in perspective and sure reminds me of this:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Casale_Bikini.jpg

Why are these roman girls wearing bikinis?!

[Herman Strauss]

The problem begins with Ravenloft’s D&D heritage that has nothing to do with medieval but with a pseudo-medieval fantasy board game.
I mean this is the game where using a one-shot pistol against a fireball-throwing, meteor swarm-hurling antagonist is unbalancing because Hey! Full plate is fireproof and meteor impact absorbing but it was pistols that made it obsolete in the real world.
Most of Ravenloft’s (setting) problems come from the fact that Ravenloft (adventure), on which it was based, was little more than a board game dungeon with “Dracula” vampire strategy complications.
The setting was later-on designed to appeal to people who had more feel for mystery, hauntings, intrigue, betrayal and madness than for gothic themed monster-bashing.
Now in order to do that, one would be better off if he had a setting with enough variety to design a vast array of horror scenarios.
To be frank, Ravenloft offers a far better rationalization of the “Xena” effect than most baseline D&D settings do.
Also if real-world paradigms and common sense prevailed no one in his right mind would go wilderness or dungeon adventuring dressed like a tin can wielding a huge sword.
And let’s not forget that when canons and rifles stopped firing it really came down to the bayonet!
The very nature of the Demiplane offers the DM the ultimate flexibility: this is a land of spectres in the mists and lands just vanish without anyone remembering anything about them. So just do it and vanish the ones you don’t like!

[ewancummins]

The problem begins with Ravenloft’s D&D heritage that has nothing to do with medieval but with a pseudo-medieval fantasy board game.
I mean this is the game where using a one-shot pistol against a fireball-throwing, meteor swarm-hurling antagonist is unbalancing because Hey! Full plate is fireproof and meteor impact absorbing but it was pistols that made it obsolete in the real world.
Most of Ravenloft’s (setting) problems come from the fact that Ravenloft (adventure), on which it was based, was little more than a board game dungeon with “Dracula” vampire strategy complications.
The setting was later-on designed to appeal to people who had more feel for mystery, hauntings, intrigue, betrayal and madness than for gothic themed monster-bashing.
Now in order to do that, one would be better off if he had a setting with enough variety to design a vast array of horror scenarios.
To be frank, Ravenloft offers a far better rationalization of the “Xena” effect than most baseline D&D settings do.
Also if real-world paradigms and common sense prevailed no one in his right mind would go wilderness or dungeon adventuring dressed like a tin can wielding a huge sword.
And let’s not forget that when canons and rifles stopped firing it really came down to the bayonet!
The very nature of the Demiplane offers the DM the ultimate flexibility: this is a land of spectres in the mists and lands just vanish without anyone remembering anything about them. So just do it and vanish the ones you don’t like!

A minor quibble:

Pistols didn't really do that much to make full plate armor obselete- not at the level of technology seen in most canon Ravenloft domains. In the 1500s we had 'bullet-proofed' armor that was tested and marked by firing a gun into it at a certain range. The resulting dent was the mark of proof. Soft lead bullets could 'splash' on steel cuirasses, especially so if fired at a fair range or striking in a glancing fashion against the slope of a breastplate. Of course, such bullet-resistant armor was relatively heavy and expensive, both of which factors tended to contribute to a gradual trend to scale back protection to just the vitals. That decline in armor coverage was arguably driven more by developments in long arms than pistols, though pistols used by cavalry did play some role in this because of a trend to re-inforce the breastplate and save weight by cutting back on coverage of other areas. Of course, many soldiers and fighting-men could never afford full armor, anyway. In the 16th and 17th centuries, several parts of Europe saw the use of well-armored cavalry armed with swords and pistols.

The real problems with late era plate armor were not that it couldn't be made to resist shot, but that it was expensive, hot, and increasingly heavy ( to stop shot, it was 're-inforced- especially the breastplates, in many cases). In economic and logistical terms, it stopped making sense to shell out lots of money for heavily armored troops, when one could raise a larger body of lightly armored or unarmored men with pikes or muskets and use them quite effectively with the new tactics.


If you are fighting monsters like primitive broken ones, werewolves, brutish golems, zombies, etc- I'd say that full plate armor remains a valid option even at higher tech levels.


I'll add that single shot blackpowder guns are not all that unbalancing in D&D, IMO. Anything up through flintlocks should be fine. A cap-and-ball revolver like the Colt Dragoon- now that could be unbalancing.

The official S&S stats on guns are nerfed to the point of silliness- despite having too quick reload times. I have fixed them, more-or-less, IMC.

I agree with you that the original Ravenloft module was not really Gothic horror. It was a dungeon crawl with Gothic dressing and backstory. It's also a great module- one of my favorites. I wouldn't call it a 'board game'. It's a fusion between event based and location based module design. I don't see how it is a 'board game' -unless you consider the vast majority of modules written before about 1989 , and quite a few written afterward, to be 'board games.'


I'm curious as to what you mean by the 'Xena' effect. Could you please explain? I never watched the show.

[ewancummins]

Richemulot is even worse. Jaqueline Renier is actually wearing roaring '20s flapper dress.

Is she, or is she just wearing a dress that resembles one? Couldn't many different circumstances yield a similar fashion with regard to dresses without touching other issues. After all, she doesn't have bobbed hair.

Yes, well, now.... that does put it in perspective and sure reminds me of this:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Casale_Bikini.jpg

Why are these roman girls wearing bikinis?!

Classic! Thanks for posting this.

[ewancummins]

She is wearing a dress resembling one, and wearing headgear to match. Richemulaise society is, as far as I recall, a Renaissance society (real Renaissance, not what the rules call Renaissance), so my argument is not that the Land of Rich Fieldmouse is a 1920's domain, but rather that I find it enormously silly and aesthetically unappealing having modern cultural conventions like e.g. mass production, psychiatry and late 19th to early 20th century garb in a predominantly late medieval/Renaissance world, which is also the kind of world that D&D best emulates.

It is my contention that as a D&D setting, Ravenloft was originally meant to be a medieval world with touches of Renaissance culture. Supplements and later editions have gradually changed that, but it is not a change I appreciate, personally.

Now, the question remains: does it really matter? No, it doesn't. The players are unlikely ever to see any illustrations, and I can describe NPCs the way I want, so it won't ever come up in a game.

The modern paraphenalia are just one of the reasons I gave for my dislike of the highest cultural levels in Ravenloft, which pertains to the topic at hand: I have house-ruled that Ravenloft is culturally equivalent to the late Middle Ages and Renaissance and below (because that's what I like), and I wanted to know how others handled the cultural levels in Ravenloft campaigns, if indeed they did anything.

TTFN

Have you noticed that Dominic D'Honaire is dressed in an older fashion ( 1500 or early 1600s, maybe) in the Black Box art, but that Dementlieuse styles are much more evocative of the 19th century in later write-ups? I prefer the older fashions for them, myself.

[Herman Strauss]

I'm curious as to what you mean by the 'Xena' effect. Could you please explain? I never watched the show.

I am referring to the “one era fits them all” style of scenario where a Julius Caesar would clash swords with an ancient Greek amazon who is vacationing after the conquest of troy, while her girlfriend is having troubles in Arthurian England (with no time-travelling involved)!

A cap-and-ball revolver like the Colt Dragoon- now that could be unbalancing.

Ok. So 50 round magazine lightning sticks and incendiary grenade necklaces are NOT unbalancing and gothic mood-screwing !? What DID I miss?

I agree with you that the original Ravenloft module was not really Gothic horror. It was a dungeon crawl with Gothic dressing and backstory. It's also a great module- one of my favorites. I wouldn't call it a 'board game'. It's a fusion between event based and location based module design. I don't see how it is a 'board game' -unless you consider the vast majority of modules written before about 1989 , and quite a few written afterward, to be 'board games.'

That probably sounded harsher than I intended! But if it comes down to killing monsters and stealing the treasure it is closer to Talisman and Warhammer Quest than actual RPG (especially if one's advancement is based on wounds inflicted and not character development).

(How do you replace that "Quote:" thing with "XXXXX wrote:" anyway?)

[Gonzoron of the FoS]

Code: Select all

[quote="Herman Strauss"]

will give you:

Code: Select all

[quote] 

will give you:

[Herman Strauss]

I am in your debt Sir!

Thank you Gonzoron!

[ewancummins]

I'm curious as to what you mean by the 'Xena' effect. Could you please explain? I never watched the show.

I am referring to the “one era fits them all” style of scenario where a Julius Caesar would clash swords with an ancient Greek amazon who is vacationing after the conquest of troy, while her girlfriend is having troubles in Arthurian England (with no time-travelling involved)!

A cap-and-ball revolver like the Colt Dragoon- now that could be unbalancing.

Ok. So 50 round magazine lightning sticks and incendiary grenade necklaces are NOT unbalancing and gothic mood-screwing !? What DID I miss?

I agree with you that the original Ravenloft module was not really Gothic horror. It was a dungeon crawl with Gothic dressing and backstory. It's also a great module- one of my favorites. I wouldn't call it a 'board game'. It's a fusion between event based and location based module design. I don't see how it is a 'board game' -unless you consider the vast majority of modules written before about 1989 , and quite a few written afterward, to be 'board games.'

That probably sounded harsher than I intended! But if it comes down to killing monsters and stealing the treasure it is closer to Talisman and Warhammer Quest than actual RPG (especially if one's advancement is based on wounds inflicted and not character development).

(How do you replace that "Quote:" thing with "XXXXX wrote:" anyway?)

Of course, the issue with the revolver isn't simply power- it's economics. Mass-producing revolvers is ultimately going to much to be cheaper and easier than attempting to create lots of magic items, especially so in a relatively low magic setting.

[Rotipher of the FoS]

Is she, or is she just wearing a dress that resembles one? Couldn't many different circumstances yield a similar fashion with regard to dresses without touching other issues.

You mean, like not wanting to bundle herself up in the sort of gown that would constrict her tail and limbs when she transforms? Jackie sets the fashions in her domain: perhaps she designed that dress herself, to be easily worn and/or shucked by a ratwoman body.

[ewancummins]

That probably sounded harsher than I intended! But if it comes down to killing monsters and stealing the treasure it is closer to Talisman and Warhammer Quest than actual RPG (especially if one's advancement is based on wounds inflicted and not character development).

Wounds inflicted?

In the standard rules for every edition of D&D, PCs earn XP for defeating monsters. Some editions have also given out XP for treasure claimed in the course of adventuring, or suggested ad hoc or individual awards for other things. Of course, rule 0 is always in effect, so you can award XP in any way you deem fit.

I reject the idea that a roleplaying game focused on adventures that involve battling monsters and winning treasures is somehow 'not an actual RPG.'

[DocBeard]

Do we really want to go into, "Combat free is the only REAL roleplaying." versus "WTF brosef haven't killed anything in an hour."?

A game's a game. If you sit around and use miniatures, the board game comparison is probably pretty accurate, but I've seen plenty of board games where the goal is something as deep as the artsiest fartsiest RPG.

This is all opinion anyway; what's immersion breaking for one group won't even be noticed by another. Personally, I use the Disgaea standard of just having guns because they're cool and ignoring the socio-economic development that would normally follow because who cares?. If a player gets whiny about it I note that the gun hasn't become super cheap yet because standardized parts haven't been accepted Corewide, so they're still individually built. I know that'd give some folks here hives, and neither I nor the hypothetical itchy fellow are "right" or "wrong" unless we try to force one style of gameplay on the other; and even in that case, stuff like this is ultimately the DM's call, so there's a clear chain of command to reference.

The reason people use anachronisms in Ravenloft is that the horror genre tends to evolve along with the society producing art from it because the familiar is twisted into frightening easier, and because the Gothic movement Ravenloft spends a lot of time referencing was during/just before the Industrial Revolution, so its natural to associate Ravenloft's adventurous side with Jules Verne as much as Sir Walter Scott.

Yeah, I know I am a few decades off but the point here is what the average person perceives, not what history/lit majors remember from cramming for an exam. Ask a person what a Victorian-era adventure story can and should have and you'll get everything from Dumas to Stoker to Dickens to Poe to Verne to Lovecraft. I'm not saying that this is necessarily right or wrong, but a sort of unconscious assumption the creative mind makes, sort of like Herman's 'Xena effect'.