Old elves in RL

[Mangrum]

Totally out of curiosity, but has Ravenloft had a native elf population long enough to know their life expectancy?

Yes, in that when a domain forms in the Mists, its population (with a very few notable exceptions) its created in media res. It's born full-grown, so to speak, as if it had existed all along. That being the case, when a domain of elves appears, some of those elves will be young, and some will be old, as with any population.

For what it's worth, when I started putting ideas together for Darkon in Gaz II, I was going to include a note that elves commit a form of ritual suicide -- euthanasia, really -- when the urge to "leave" the world came upon them. But I quickly confirmed that 3E elves were simply mortal like other humanoids, and thus abandoned the note as obsolete.

[Jack of Tears]

As elves grow older they shrink, tend to get uglier and fowler of temper. They often take to growing beards and eventually take great pride in their length, their skin becomes sensitive to sunlight, so they spend more and more time underground where their talent with tree and wood turns toward working stone and gems. Fearful of old age, most elves avoid their aged kin and sometimes develop rude nicknames for them - but if you look close enough you can see evidence of elven seniors all throughout the lands.

[abcd]

Drow can die of natural causes? Has it ever happened? LOL!

"a dagger in the back naturally causes death"

[DeepShadow of FoS]

The idea that elves might escape RL by dying seems to be that they undergo some process that is different from the afterlife of a mortal. After all, one could argue that any RL native could escape by natural or non-natural death, insofar as they go to their afterlife. All those who don't become ghosts, that is.

Is there any canon reference to support the idea that RL natives don't go to the Outer Planes when they die, like anyone else?

[Gonzoron of the FoS]

As far as I know, no canon reference that they don't, but no canon reference that they do, and considering the blanket rule that "nobody gets out of Ravenloft," I've seen many people extend that to the dead as well. One theory I saw was that all spirits are reincarnated in Ravenloft. (Then there's the old question of if the natives of Ravenloft are as "real" as outsiders, and whether they just cease to exist when the DPs are done with them...)

[Higginz]

As far as I know, no canon reference that they don't, but no canon reference that they do, and considering the blanket rule that "nobody gets out of Ravenloft," I've seen many people extend that to the dead as well. One theory I saw was that all spirits are reincarnated in Ravenloft. (Then there's the old question of if the natives of Ravenloft are as "real" as outsiders, and whether they just cease to exist when the DPs are done with them...)

I am new to the World of Ravenloft, but from what I have read this is the impression I have gotten as well. Do people even age in Ravenloft? I know that they would think they do, but the RPHB mentions that when a domain forms that the inhabitants come into being with full memories.

Furthermore, it seems to me that the only reason elves, gnomes, and halflings are even in the game is because it had to be compatible with the D&D PHB; they are not really appropriate to the subject matter of the world.

[Gonzoron of the FoS]

I am new to the World of Ravenloft, but from what I have read this is the impression I have gotten as well. Do people even age in Ravenloft? I know that they would think they do, but the RPHB mentions that when a domain forms that the inhabitants come into being with full memories.

It's up to the DM, of course, but as Ravenloft moved away from "weekend in hell" adventures and into a more integrated campaign world, it's become more implied that Ravenloft natives are real, or at least, if they aren't real, there is no way to prove that they aren't.

So yes, they are born, age, and die normally. (Some lucky few even die of old age. ) When a domain forms, the inhabitants are either created with memories and histories OR pulled from another world along with their darklord.

Any doubt in the reality of the natives is an existential one, not something that could be proven easily.

[Sareau]

Do people even age in Ravenloft? I know that they would think they do, but the RPHB mentions that when a domain forms that the inhabitants come into being with full memories.

Furthermore, it seems to me that the only reason elves, gnomes, and halflings are even in the game is because it had to be compatible with the D&D PHB; they are not really appropriate to the subject matter of the world.

Drakov's existance and the fact no one questions the "Reichfuhrer" nor his longevity, would seem to indicate either they do not age or that someone in Falkovnia is running glandular transplant surgery. Mordenheim is also an argument, but he seems to be such a recluse, I don't doubt many people think the Mordenheim before them is simply the current generation of that sad family, or that natives avoid the Mordenheims entirely and leave visiting to outsiders.

On the second point, I agree to some extent, but Sithicus should continue to be an elven realm, if only because they were so closely tied to Soth's damnation. The other demihumans, except for the calibans, really have such a minor role in gothic literature, one can leave them out and no one but diehards will notice.
Of course, allowing individuals to exist as Ravenloft figures is still perfectly acceptable-I have a gnome serial killer who dresses like a jester in a homage to Poe's "Hop-Frog" and prefers equally imaginative and gruesome methods of murder, but most people think Hop-Frog is a particularily twisted caliban, not a gnome.
I think a similar stigma would be attached to Dr. Miguelito Loveless were he to appear in Ravenloft...

[Manofevil]

RavenLoft as we know it is only 400 years old. I haven't seen how long elves live in the current rules, but it seems to me that any elves born in RavenLoft COULDN'T have aged to death yet.

[Gonzoron of the FoS]

Drakov's existance and the fact no one questions the "Reichfuhrer" nor his longevity, would seem to indicate either they do not age or that someone in Falkovnia is running glandular transplant surgery. Mordenheim is also an argument, but he seems to be such a recluse, I don't doubt many people think the Mordenheim before them is simply the current generation of that sad family, or that natives avoid the Mordenheims entirely and leave visiting to outsiders.

Darklords (and cursed individuals like Mordenheim) are a special case. their unnaturally aging is a "gift" from the dark powers, not the norm. how the locals explain it would likely vary by domain.

As a counter-proof: the Weathermay-Foxgrove Twins were born in 731 and are now young ladies.

RavenLoft as we know it is only 400 years. I haven't seen how long elves live in the current rules, but it seems to me that any elves born in RavenLoft COULDN'T aged to death yet.

Not sure if this is directed at my last post or the thread in general, but I was speaking of aging to death with respect to characters in general, not specifically elves. But elves that were formed "old" as a domain formed could have aged to death, as could outsider elves that arrived in Ravenloft at an old age.

Also, there's the temporal fugue in the Shadow rift, which gives several hundred more years to play with...

[Sareau]

Darklords (and cursed individuals like Mordenheim) are a special case. their unnaturally aging is a "gift" from the dark powers, not the norm. how the locals explain it would likely vary by domain.

As a counter-proof: the Weathermay-Foxgrove Twins were born in 731 and are now young ladies.

I mentioned Drakov only because he is the only high profile immortal-the Park Powers seem to believe those they single out need time to consider, as many non-Darklord individuals wander around impervious to time as well-most are darklords or menaces nearly at that level of damnation, but as far as normal humans go, the peasants and such there for flavor-and I don't mean the blood-most of them seem timeless themselves. Certainly, except for Drakov, most of the "immortals" take pains to stay well-hidden from public scrutiny, itself proof that the realm ages or not based on the mad whims of the Dark Powers, but everyone tries to pretend it's normal.

[Jack of Tears]

Mortals in Ravenloft age and die as they do in any other domain. If they did not behave like real, living individuals they players would not identify with them and the "false" nature of their existence would insure that no player ever asked twice about sacrificing a citizen of Ravenloft - nor would they ever feel particularly motivated to go out of their way to save them.

Now, there would be something interesting about a setting in which hundreds of years passed, the world changed through war and strife, but the people themselves never aged. Relationships would be interesting, as would the popular perception of the world. But, then you'd basically be playing elves - even if you gave them more human personalities in general some things would be inevitable. Change would come slow, because no one would be in a hurry to make their mark on the world; people would be less prone to overreacting to change, as they would universally possess the perspective that all things pass in time; etc.

No, if you want to produce a Gothic Horror setting you need for people at large to be mortal or the familiarity that produces fear would go right out the window.

[Jester of the FoS]

I think I wrote something about this into my Races of the Mists series in Quoth the Raven.

[hidajiremi]

In my campaign, elves have life spans of around three to four centuries... with the possibility of living to be much older. Basically, in the same way that humans don't bat an eye at the idea of someone with "good breeding" living to be a hundred or more and being in good health for most of that time, no one is surprised that an exceptionally long-lived elf could live six or eight hundred years.

Of course, I also explain that Ravenloft isn't 400 years old... it just seems that way from an "outside" perspective. When the Dark Powers create "false histories" for a domain, they actually change the past, such that the new history is true--though the alterations are imperfect, since there are multiple conflicting histories going on at this point, so an extremely careful scholar who knows what to look for can find the places where the seams don't join quite right.


Jeremy Puckett

[Rotipher of the FoS]

If you're looking for a canon confirmation that natives of Ravenloft age and die normally, there's an exception that proves the rule: Tovag, the short-lived domain assigned to Kas the Destroyer in Domains of Dread, was a realm whose inhabitants grew up, and grew old, twice as fast as usual. As Domains of Dread was oriented to campaigns with home-grown Ravenlofter PCs, "as usual" implies "as usual for other domains' natives".