Cultural Levels & technology in Ravenloft

[ewancummins]

A recent discussion with Alhoon has inspired me to start this thread.

Do you use CLs as presented in the published materials? How do you guys interpret the CL system? How do you account for/deal with the broad differences in tecnhology from one domain to the next?


IMC, I assume that CL represents local expertise, infarstructure, literacy rates, etc. Low CL cultures in contact with high CL cultures may borrow advances in technology. Domain barriers are not necessarily barriers to the diffusion of ideas.


Why are some domains of the Core CL 7 while others are at CL 8 or 9?

Role of Religion:

The Church of Ezra is a patron of the arts and sciences. This is one reason why the NW countries, where the influence of Ezranism is stronger, are more advanced.

The Dementlieuse branch of the Ezran Church stresses inquiry and observation as tools for understanding the world. Many Dementlieuse priests have also been scientists and inventors. This has given Dementlieu an edge in technological and scientific fields.

The Church of the Lawgiver frowns on novelty and innovation, and actively discourages such things in lands where it holds sway.


Domain effects:

The memory altering properties of Darkon seem to have retarded the development of the mundane arts and sciences in that country. Magic continues to advance (this irritates Azalin, as he cannot learn /create new spells himself).

The Smothering of Reason may have had the opposite effect on Lamordian technological growth.

Lamordia's unique antimagic field tends to support a superstitous faith in ''Science'' over magic and miracles. The less well educated and well-travelled a Lamordian is, the more likely he is a hard-headed materialist.




Economics

Development in many domains is hampered by rent-seeking, high taxes, overregulation, labor cartels, and government corruption.

A note on science- In most domains, the natural sciences and arcane magic are related fields of study. The notable exception is Lamordia, as described above.

[BedrockBrendan]

I pretty much attribute the differences in CL to the dark powers.

[ewancummins]

I pretty much attribute the differences in CL to the dark powers.

Is it like the Hollow World, then? The DPs have some kind of 'Spell of Preservation' in effect?

[BedrockBrendan]

I pretty much attribute the differences in CL to the dark powers.

Is it like the Hollow World, then? The DPs have some kind of 'Spell of Preservation' in effect?

Never played hollow world. But I just assumed in a world where whole populations simply spring into existence at the whim of the dark powers, it isn't much of a stretch for them to have a power preserving the overall feel of the domain.

[Gonzoron of the FoS]

Note that the first contact between an "advanced" domain (Mordent) and a "backward" one (Barovia) was in 579. That's not quite 200 years "ago" from the current date. The really advanced places like Dementlieu and Lamordia are less than 100 years old. I'm content to believe that technology is flowing from High CL to Low CL domains, just very slowly, impeded by less travel and trade than your average world (due to superstition, horrors in the night, oppressive regimes, magic, xenophobia, the Dark Powers, etc.)

Remember that only 30 years or so of game time have passed since the black box. One generation or so. The rapid advance in technology in our own generation in the real world is the abnormal case. If you sample your average technology advance over 30 years from say 1300-1330, or 1500-1530, you won't see much change.

Now, personally, I push the creation of most of the domains back a hundred years or so, but I also handwave a lot of the issues raised in this thread. From an objective point of view, it's startling to see the difference in CL's near each other, but in game, it's never been noticed.

[ewancummins]

IMC, most of the lands have histories that predate their emergence from the Mists/discovery by outsiders. Moreover, the Powers can rewrite history to include domains that have recently been created/brought in from elsewhere. Most people think in terms of new routes through the Mists and of the Mists as receding from regions- not of whole new countries simply popping up out of nothingness.

The cultures of most lands are traditionalist and conservative- but not static. Innovation and diffusion of ideas from outside are always possibilities.

YMMV

[doctor-evil]

Quite frankly, most of my players have never questioned the differing technology levels. But I portray the western part of the core as having good communications and Dementieu and lamordia leading in terms of technology because they have universities or are major cultural centers, and lack of technology in other areas are due to superstition, poor communication and geographic isolation. Where we are it's relatively easy to drive 2 hours and it's like travelling back in time 50 years...

On CLs - Below is a aid I wrote for my players (most of whom are graduate students and so finickety about accuracy and research). Some is non-cannon, but that is mostly because how domains are portrayed, the technology in adventures and the literature that they're inspired by/based on don't match up with the cannon timeline.

EARLY MIDDLE AGES 1050-1099; Motte & Bailey castle, Chainmail, Crossbows; ,Battle of Hastings; First Crusade; Harold; William I-II

Sanguinia
MIDDLE AGES 1100-1149;Pipe organs; Cadfael mysteries; The Anarchy; Henry I, Stephen

Tepest?
MIDDLE AGES 1150-1199; Oxford University; Kingdom of Heaven; Third Crusade; Henry II, Richard I; Geghis Khan (Robin Hood)

MIDDLE AGES 1200-1249;Gothic architecture; Magna Carta; John, Henry III

MIDDLE AGES 1250-1299; Eyeglasses;Henry III, Edward I; William Wallace

LATE MIDDLE AGES 1300-1349; The Name of the Rose; Battle of Bannockburn; 100 years war; Edward II, Edward III

Barovia
LATE MIDDLE AGES 1350-1399; Bastard Sword, Plate mail; Canterbury Tales; Black Death; Edward III, Richard II

Nidala
LATE MIDDLE AGES 1400-1449; Arquebus, Full plate; Wood block printing; Battle of Agincourt; Henry IV-VI, Joan of Arc

Falkovnia
LATE MIDDLE AGE/ RENAISSANCE 1450-1499; 2-handed sword;First printed book in English; Blackadder (ser.i), Spanish Inquisition, War of the Roses, "Discovery" of the New World; Henry VI, Edward IV-V, Richard III, Henry VII; Leonardo Da Vinci, Lucrezia Borgia,Vlad Tepes, Tomás de Torquemada,

Kartakass
RENAISSANCE 1500-1549; Rapier – crossbows go out of use, Wheelock, Basket hilted swords; Harpsichords; Die Meistersinger von Nürnberg, The Reformation; Henry VIII; Thomas Moore, Martin Luther

Borca / Invidia
RENAISSANCE 1550-1599; Bucklers /Main-gauche, Snaplock - Longbows go out of use ; Romeo & Juliet; Spanish Armada; End of SCA period; Edward VI, Mary I, Elizabeth I; Elizabeth Bathory, William Shakespeare, Francis Drake

Richemulot
RENAISSANCE 1600-1649; Flintlock; Plate armour goes out of use – breastplates only; Three Musketeers; Gunpowder plot; English Civil War; King James Bible; Jamestown; Mayflower; James I, Charles I; Cardinal-Duc de Richelieu

Mordentshire
RESTORATION 1650-1699; Lorna Doone,The crucible, Great Plague of London, Monmouth Rebellion; Cromwell, Charles II, James II, William & Mary; Isaac Newton

ENLIGHTENMENT 1700-1749; Rob Roy, Jacobite Rebellion; Bill of Rights; Bank of England founded; Anne, George I-II

Dementlieu
ENLIGHTENMENT 1750-1799; Watt's steam engine; First paddle steamer; First factories; Smallpox vaccination; Dangerous liaisons; Kidnapped, Scarlet Pimpernel; American War of Independence; French Revolution; Penal colony in Australia; George II-III; Jane Austen

Lamordia
NAPOLEONIC/PRE-INDUSTRIAL 1800-1849 The royal postal service; Slavery abolished (UK); Frankenstein, The Vampyre, Pride & Predudice Napoleonic Wars, Regency; Irish potato famine; American gold rush ; George III-IV, Victoria; Mary Shelley, Lord Byron, Karl Marx

Paridon
INDUSTRIAL 1850-1899 Industrial revolution; Bleak House, Dracula, Dr Jeckyll & Mr Hyde; American civil war; Origin of the Species; Crimean war; Battle of wounded knee; Victoria; Charles Dickens, Charles Darwin, Florence Nightingale,Jack the Ripper

[Strahdsbuddy]

Initially I felt like Doctor Evil's 700 year difference from domain to domain was a little off, but the more I thought about it, the more sense it made in the context of the setting. With Padiron and Sanguinia isolated as they are (in most campaigns, tho not mine) it really takes those two outliers away.

I like ewancummings ideas on religion driving or stifling technology and I would say he is spot on with the Ezrites and the Banites. Another major obstacle to the movement of ideas is probably geography. The Balinoks and Mountains of Misery would be very large obstacles that would keep the ideas of Lamordia and Dementlieu away from Barovia, Nova Vaasa and the Noctournal Sea.

Conversely, the Musarde/Arden/Luna network would give access to to all the nations touching it, although the thick forest in the southwestern Core is another obstacle, particularly due to its hungry inhabitants.

Social obstacles also exist, with the insular Tepestani, Barovians and Sithicans sitting on what essentially becomes the border of "western" technology because they stubbornly do not accept foreigners and their ideas.

Though some people do not like the negative energy cloud at Il Aluk, the severence of the Vuchar has a similar effect on eastern Darkon. In fact, the stark difference between the Nevuchar Springs Ezrites and their western cousins shows how much ideas can be distorted over distance.

[doctor-evil]

Initially I felt like Doctor Evil's 700 year difference from domain to domain was a little off, but the more I thought about it, the more sense it made in the context of the setting. With Padiron and Sanguinia isolated as they are (in most campaigns, tho not mine) it really takes those two outliers away. .

Yep, for most of the core it's within a 400 year period. If you look at travel writing from the 17th & 18th Century writers comment that going to the highlands of Scotland from England was like going back in time hundreds of years - because of problems with access. Likewise travelling into Romania, or parts of Russia from mainland Europe or major Russian cities.
In the core, some technology will flow across boders. But without regular supplies of spare parts, some more advanced items would soon become usless, e.g. firearms without a good supply of black powder. Parochials would likely stick with technology they know and can fix...

[alhoon]

I use more or less the following:

CL 4: Classic age: 510BC-410AD (Ends at the sack of Rome)
CL 5: Dark ages: 410AD-800AD (Ends at the equivalent of Charlemagne)
CL6: Early Medevial: 800-1066 (Up to Hastings)
CL7: High Medevial: 1066-around 1257 (Up to gunpowder)
CL8: Late Medevial: 1257-1492 (Discovery of America)
CL9: Renaissance: 1492 - 1660 (up to Luis XIV taking over France)
For More advanced domains:
CL10: Enlightment: 1660-1789 (Up to French Revolution). I usually place Dementlieu there.
CL11: Early industrial: 1789-1850. I usually place Paridon and Lamordia there. I don't remember what happened in 1850 to make me cut it there, but that's the limit.


Now, CL4 presents a number of problems. It spans Classical Greece +Alexander, Hellenistic period and Roman Republic/Empire. There were different technological advancements in each subperiod so CL4 domains present a problem of what exists when. For example Longspears may exist or not, Banded armor may exist or not etc.

[ewancummins]

I view the CLs as broad descriptors of locally manufactured technology and infrastructure, and not much else.
Ravenloft is so radically unlike Europe, that strictly applying a model based on Western European history doesn't make sense to me.


YMMV, of course.

[alhoon]

Well, I use techs as they were reported of existing and in use (in wikipedia in said periods), not for the history. Also, I don't use a strictly Western Europe model, but a model based on the culture I immitate.

For example, splint armor IMC in most domains that are Western Europe appears in CL6, while more eastern domains would have it CL5. ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Splinted_armour )
On the contrary, heavy flails and morningstar weapons would need CL8. ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flail_(weapon) , http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Morning_star_(weapon) )

Of course, I take some liberty with CL and techs. So while indeed in Barovia and Hazlan there wouldn't be any morningstars or flails, Falkovia will have them as well as bastard swords.
Also in a CL4 domain with a medusa darklord, there are no crossbows.

As for culture: Greek fire would be in CL6 Pharazia but not CL5 Darkon or CL7 Falkovia. It would also be in CL5 Byzantine-like domains or CL6+ Persian/Mongol domains and again in gunpowder domains if it suits them.

[ewancummins]

Alhoon- how do you deal with diffusion of ideas from one domain to another?
In particular, what keeps gunpowder technology from spreading quickly?

[alhoon]

That's a good question. With increased costs for things and for ideas... with the Xenophobe/"(our) old ways are best" card.

You know, there were a few humanists in Europe before the movement of Humanism. They were executed or rediculed. I extrapolate this incident and try to make do.
For example, Dementlieu is in enlightment with people seriously debating over slavery and serfdom. Tell that to a Hazlani noble and you'll be hunted down. Tell that to a Vaasi peasant or serf and he will look at you as if you're mad, since he believes that's the way things should be even if he's on the bad side.

Now if a Lamordian tells those Dementlieu scholars and philosophers that debate over slavery his ideas about all men being equal, no kings/nobles/divine right, constitution above persons and he will be rediculed and he'll be considered a radical by most of them.

And of course there comes the bad guys. Say in Dementlieu you think there should be no aristocracy and a few days later you'll openly admit you were drunk when you said such rubbish. A few days later you'll disappear and you won't come back. In Vaasa? Banites will make sure you're publicly executed, violently, along with others that may haven't been fast to discredit you. Darkon? A Lamordian in Darkon saying the King should be under a strange thing called constitution? He will be attacked by guards even before Kargat takes care of him.

Should I proceed to tell you what would happen to a Lamordian claiming Falkovia should have a constitution? Or a Dementlieu philosopher asking for the release of the demihuman slaves?

EDIT: Gunpowder?
Cost and the Dark Powers. Falkovians can't make gunpowder, something will go wrong even if they torture a gnome and find out the recipy. Barovians don't know the recipy and lack the materials. Hazlan and Sithicus prefers magic. Kartakas has a "We don't need that" attitude. Darkon?
Well, Darkon has gunpowder in the west but not in the east. A small town in Eastern Darkon doesn't know the recipy and has to buy gunpowder for say, the mayor's musket at very high prices. But the mayor may have a musket in that CL5 town.

I know it's kinda lame and I'm open to suggestions!

PS. Something going wrong could be anything from a serial killer/gnome ghost assassinating the guy that learned the recipy to a powercheck loss making the would-be-inventor mute to even shadow fey stealing the materials before he manages to make it, while Drakov loses his patience and executes him.

[ewancummins]

That doesn't really deal with practical matters like boomsticks.