Cultural Levels & technology in Ravenloft

[alhoon]

Where do you think I got the idea for the name???

[Rotipher of the FoS]

Even if the basic recipe for gunpowder becomes widely known, the right techniques for purifying its ingredients may not be. A few impurities in the mix can render black powder useless or, worse, more dangerous to the person trying to wield the firearm. How many times does a primitive gun need to misfire and/or blow up in someone's hand, before pragmatic locals will give up on them as a bad idea?

Moreover, guns are expensive items, that need regular attention by a gunsmith to ensure proper operation over the long term. Plenty of guns that are imported to backwater regions like Barovia or Nova Vaasa probably wind up gathering dust in somebody's attic, because no one in the area is able to repair them after a misfire or routine wear-and-tear degrade their mechanisms. Plenty more may go unsold because there's cheaper ways to arm your conscripts, who'll do better with bows or spears than some bizarre high-tech contraption they've never seen before.

[alhoon]

The whole point with the firearms historically though was that they were cheap, easy to use and easy to train people in their use.

[ewancummins]

The whole point with the firearms historically though was that they were cheap, easy to use and easy to train people in their use.

IMC, firearms are not exotic weapons (unless they are unsuual combination weapons like the sword-pistol). They are simple weapons for CL 9, and martial for CL 8. At CL 7 and lower, they require familiarity. CL 7 and lower fighters and other martial classes (anyone with proficiency in all martial weapons as a class feature) may acquire familiarity with firearms through steady practice, without expemding a feat. Other 'primitive' characters may aqcuire proficeincy with a feat, just like any other martial weapon. Note that one can still use a gun without proficiency- you just get the usual penalties.

Prices are reduced at the upper CLs. The astronimcally high prices in the books represent buying a firearm in a poor, primitive, or isolated country. In Port-a-Lucine, a good pistol costs about as much as a crossbow.

The real control on firearms, cannon, etc. IMC is the cost of gunpowder, which is higher outside of alchemically productive regions. This is because gunpowder can only be made with the alchemy skill, and that skill only works for spellcasters.


Lamordia is the only odd piece in the puzzle. At first I was going to simply state that things work differently there, Now I think I'll add a feat: Lamordian Alchemist. It's based on the 'Magical Training' regional feat from the FCS, and is only available to Lamordian characters at first level.

Here's a rough draft:

Lamordian Alchemist
prerequisites: INT 10, human or dwarf, Lamordian native, 5 ranks in Craft: Alchemy, first level only

bennies: Qualifies as a spell caster for use of craft: alchemy. May use detect poison as an exrtaordinary ability, twice per day.

Questions, comments, and criticism are welcome, of course.

[alhoon]

Eh... Requires five ranks of a skill in 1st lvl? And actually a skill that it's exclusive and needs said feat to master?

Also, why would it be 1st lvl only? The way I imagine it and from the prereqs it seems more "training" rather than "natural talent you're born with".

[ewancummins]

Eh... Requires five ranks of a skill in 1st lvl? And actually a skill that it's exclusive and needs said feat to master?

Also, why would it be 1st lvl only? The way I imagine it and from the prereqs it seems more "training" rather than "natural talent you're born with".

Ah, that should be 4 ranks, LOL.

The skill is not really 'exclusive' in 3.5. I don't see a prohibition against non-casters taking ranks in alchemy.That would represent some knowledge of the subject but no practical ability beyond basic chemistry.

Alchemy is chemistry. In order to make what the rulebooks class as 'alchemical/speical' items, you need the skill and caster ability. A non-caster 'lesser' alchemist could still do simple things like distill alcohol.
He could also identify certain substances and compounds. He just couldn't make things like alchemist's fire, gunpowder, etc. Think of him as a lab assistant, or an academic without practical, applied skills.


As for the 1st level only requirement, that is standard with 'regional feats.' I agree that it doesn't always fit well. I suppose I could do away with it. The feat is absolutely only available to Lamordian natives, and the character must have trained in Lamordia.

[ewancummins]

Lamordian Alchemist (revised with feedback from Alhoon)
prerequisites: INT 10, human or dwarf, Lamordian native, 4 ranks in Craft: Alchemy, cannot be acquired outside Lamordia/requires training in the domain.

bennies: Qualifies as a spell caster for use of craft: alchemy. May use detect poison as an exrtaordinary ability, twice per day.

Note that non-casters may take ranks in Craft:ALchemy, but cannot use the skill to actually make any item labeled as special/alchemical. That includes all items listed as being of alchemical origin in the SRD. A 'lesser alchemist' could still use his training to assist a true alchemist, idenitify chemicals, distill alcohol, etc.

[alhoon]

On alchemy = chemistry: Not exactly IMO. Alchemy is far more empirical and far less science than chemistry IMO. It's like learning complex cooking recipies. That's why I don't use it only on spellcasters despite what 3.5 edition rules.

[ewancummins]

On alchemy = chemistry: Not exactly IMO. Alchemy is far more empirical and far less science than chemistry IMO. It's like learning complex cooking recipies. That's why I don't use it only on spellcasters despite what 3.5 edition rules.

Historically speaking, it really was chemistry.

Of course, D&D isn't based closely on history.

I go with a fairly simple reading of the 3.5 rules. You need to be a spellcaster to use the Craft: Alchemy skill to make items marked as 'alchemical.'
A non-caster could still study the subject matter, of course.

IMC, magic and science are essentially the same thing. After all, magic is part of nature.

[alhoon]

Magic = science?!?

But ... magic should be unpredictable and not repeatable and it should follow completely different laws than physics.

I.e. a spell that freezes 1000 cubic feet of water in 50F would freeze again exactly 1000 cubic feet of water in 160F although that hot water contains far more energy than the colder water. Also said spell (unless properly made) wouldn't affect a room, drawing heat out of it.

[Strahdsbuddy]

I think what ewan means is that in a world where magic exists, it is part of the "naturally" occurring phenomena of the place. Therefore, the people who study it would be scientists in a way. What little I know of Eberron tells me they have rectified this to an extent with the artificer, but science and magic existing side by side always posed certain problems in D&D. For instance, would technology cease to advance past a middle ages level because of the existence of magic? Would magic replace technology? Summoning a steam mephit to power a locomotive could reduce the need for all that silly research and discovery.

[HuManBing]

But ... magic should be unpredictable and not repeatable and it should follow completely different laws than physics.

Note that he did say "IMC". Those three little letters means the discussion has moved into personal preference territory, and therefore objective statements like "A should be B" or "A should not be B" are unlikely to move the discussion forward. Certainly I'd be very careful about statements like that because it could be misunderstood to imply that you know better than he does what's good for his campaign - when by definition our familiarity will always be inferior to his.

(I know you don't mean that, but I've seen other infrequent posters on other less-friendly forums carelessly making similar assertions and it has a negative effect on the subsequent discussion.)

For what it's worth, I agree with alhoon's neutral point that literature tends to support the idea of magic as inexplicable and somewhat unscientific. However, the real-world scientific record shows that many perfectly natural phenomena are treated as highly "magical" and "unpredictable" at some point or another. This can include discoveries such as gunpowder, magnetism, and even hereditary trait inheritance or heliocentric theory.

I.e. a spell that freezes 1000 cubic feet of water in 50F would freeze again exactly 1000 cubic feet of water in 160F although that hot water contains far more energy than the colder water. Also said spell (unless properly made) wouldn't affect a room, drawing heat out of it.

It's interesting you say that, because some RPG rulesets do actually reduce to that level of granularity! GURPS is a good example - a lot of the spells are a lot more "gritty" in terms of physics than most medieval fantasy rulesets. Obviously in d20 the emphasis is less on the specific volumes and masses, and more on keeping things moving. But who's to say one approach is better or worse for all gaming styles than the other?

I do not presume to recommend one version over the other. You can have fun campaigns that break the laws of physics... alternatively you can also have fun campaigns that adhere strictly to realism. This applies to Ravenloft and Gothic horror role playing too.

Ultimately it all comes down to what works for you and your gaming group. And we're back to the three all-powerful letters: "IMC".

[ewancummins]

Magic = science?!?

But ... magic should be unpredictable and not repeatable and it should follow completely different laws than physics.

I.e. a spell that freezes 1000 cubic feet of water in 50F would freeze again exactly 1000 cubic feet of water in 160F although that hot water contains far more energy than the colder water. Also said spell (unless properly made) wouldn't affect a room, drawing heat out of it.

Magic is often repeatable, and often predictable in D&D.

As for physics, there is no meaningful distinction between physics and metaphysics in a fantasy universe like Ravenloft, IMO.

[ewancummins]

I think what ewan means is that in a world where magic exists, it is part of the "naturally" occurring phenomena of the place. Therefore, the people who study it would be scientists in a way.

Yup, that is it!

The whole idea of a magic/science dichotomy strikes me as nonsensical in an overtly magical world like Ravenloft.

That's why it only shows up, IMC, in a single domain. Despite any mumbo jumbo about 'Reason'; to assert a materialistic, 'scientific' worldview in Ravenloft is to be completely unreasonable. Ignorant or deluded Lamordians are able to maintain their false ideas mainly because they remain within their own country, where magic is suppressed by the 'Smothering.'

YMMV

[ewancummins]

My vision of the great scientists of Ravenloft is influenced by men like these;


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_dee



http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heinrich_Cornelius_Agrippa


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paracelsus