Vistani, Quevari, Voodan, other groups

[Buzzclaw]

Thanks, ewancummins and Gonzoron

[ewancummins]

Good times.


http://www.bartleby.com/364/99.html

[thekristhomas]

One of the intriguing things is that IIRC the original entries for both quevari and voodan mention a similarity to vistani, but don't really go into any detail as to how they are similar.

The first thing that leaps out between quevari and vistani is the influence of the moon, I'm don't know about later products but VRGttV was quite vague on on how exactly the moon effects vistani, and the blood moon of the quevari isn't monthly so the similarity seems to end there. Could the quevari be descended from a vistani who was somehow able to suppress their monthly urges, only to have them burst forth in murderous orgies?

The voodan and vistani seem to share mastery of curses, I would suggest that as in Ravenloft curses are practicable by all from the wisest raunie to the basest Giorgio, that this similarity stems from opportunity and observation of "the ways of the world" rather than shared heritage.

I would also submit for consideration two more peoples, the Abber Nomads, and the nomads of the Amber Wastes, both mysterious isolated nomadic groups like the vistani. The Abber seem to share the vistani ability of remaining nearly untouched by the world they inhabit, I also see some similarity in their construction of protective charms for others.

[ewancummins]

One of the intriguing things is that IIRC the original entries for both quevari and voodan mention a similarity to vistani, but don't really go into any detail as to how they are similar.

The first thing that leaps out between quevari and vistani is the influence of the moon, I'm don't know about later products but VRGttV was quite vague on on how exactly the moon effects vistani, and the blood moon of the quevari isn't monthly so the similarity seems to end there. Could the quevari be descended from a vistani who was somehow able to suppress their monthly urges, only to have them burst forth in murderous orgies?

The voodan and vistani seem to share mastery of curses, I would suggest that as in Ravenloft curses are practicable by all from the wisest raunie to the basest Giorgio, that this similarity stems from opportunity and observation of "the ways of the world" rather than shared heritage.

I would also submit for consideration two more peoples, the Abber Nomads, and the nomads of the Amber Wastes, both mysterious isolated nomadic groups like the vistani. The Abber seem to share the vistani ability of remaining nearly untouched by the world they inhabit, I also see some similarity in their construction of protective charms for others.

You probably recall my alternate take on the Abber and the Nightmare Lands.

[ewancummins]

http://www.fraternityofshadows.com/foru ... er#p210662

[thekristhomas]

That's a pre-gc Nightmare Lands, yes? I do find the lack of info on the Abber quite frustrating, IIRC prior to the red box, as well as the original entry in the black box there is only a MC entry for the Abber themselves and another MC entry for Living Tattoos which the Abber create, the Nightmare Lands seemingly becoming further and further removed from the core with each new map.

So, have I got it right that any of your Abber that the PCs meet are actually dream projections of the "real" Abber, and that enough Abber are asleep at any one time to make their shared dreamscape "persistent" to some extent? Do the Abber deliberately stagger their sleeping pattern in order to achieve this?

[ewancummins]

That's a pre-gc Nightmare Lands, yes? I do find the lack of info on the Abber quite frustrating, IIRC prior to the red box, as well as the original entry in the black box there is only a MC entry for the Abber themselves and another MC entry for Living Tattoos which the Abber create, the Nightmare Lands seemingly becoming further and further removed from the core with each new map.

So, have I got it right that any of your Abber that the PCs meet are actually dream projections of the "real" Abber, and that enough Abber are asleep at any one time to make their shared dreamscape "persistent" to some extent? Do the Abber deliberately stagger their sleeping pattern in order to achieve this?

Yes, it is a pre GC Nightmare Lands.

My actual games here were all post GC, so the idea in that thread had nothing to do with the campaigns I have run here.

As for the question of persistence, I have not decided. It might be that the First Dreamer found the Hunting Grounds and led others there in sleep rituals. Maybe the Abber have to stagger their sleep patterns to sustain it. Or maybe it can be sustained by the stories they tell of it, through the psychic energy of their race, reinforced by actually going there and experiencing it as dream selves.

The rules for them dreaming may be weird, as they have adapted to the Nightmare Lands. They are waking world people gone native in the dream world.

(Something much closer to the post GC, boxed set version of The Nightmare Lands did actually figure in the Ghosts of Gauntcliff. Tarlyn's PC escaped from the darklord's lair, partly dreamscape and partly real, into the Nightmare Lands.
He had a little help from his buddies Gruz and Smezel. Bogeymen.)

[ewancummins]

For me, the big question (implied by that Dread Possibility) is not the persistence of the Abber Hunting Grounds but the persistence and apparent physical of Abber Nomad dream bodies that have moved beyond the Hunting Grounds and into other domains.
If they are indeed dream projections, then how can they leave the dreamscape and retain physical presence in such a way?
Does that mean that on some level all of the Demiplane is a dream? Each domain is the darklord's evil dream?
Different layers of the Dreaming?
The Powers are asleep, dreaming?
Not unreal. Reality and Hyper reality!

Sanity points draining.


"All that we see or seem" , as the poet tells us.

[thekristhomas]

Here's a thought, we know that the word Abber is referencing/derived from Aborigine, meaning native, and in RW most often used to refer to the natives of Australia and less so the natives of America, and so Abber are most often imagined as being like those groups in some aspects. What if, instead, the derivation was literal, with the Abber being aboriginal to the demiplane, the only true natives, even the Barovians are ultimately from PM Barovia.

That might imply that the Nightmare Lands and by extension the Nightmare Court might be much older than previously thought, existing as an undiscovered IoT before it's relatively brief conjunction with the core. Maybe the NL is the final remaining piece of the old version of the demiplane and the Abber the last remnants of peoples and civilisations as large and diverse as the core today. Maybe the Nightmare Court is all that's left of the previous Dark Powers, relegated to dream dwellers for failing to maintain their world

[ewancummins]

Here's a thought, we know that the word Abber is referencing/derived from Aborigine, meaning native, and in RW most often used to refer to the natives of Australia and less so the natives of America, and so Abber are most often imagined as being like those groups in some aspects. What if, instead, the derivation was literal, with the Abber being aboriginal to the demiplane, the only true natives, even the Barovians are ultimately from PM Barovia.

That might imply that the Nightmare Lands and by extension the Nightmare Court might be much older than previously thought, existing as an undiscovered IoT before it's relatively brief conjunction with the core. Maybe the NL is the final remaining piece of the old version of the demiplane and the Abber the last remnants of peoples and civilisations as large and diverse as the core today. Maybe the Nightmare Court is all that's left of the previous Dark Powers, relegated to dream dwellers for failing to maintain their world

I like it!

Possible spoilers for a non Ravenloft product, but have you read

VIEW CONTENT:

Shaman

?It is an AD&D 2e book. Some of the concepts might mesh very well with what you describe.

[thekristhomas]

I skimmed it years ago, am I remembering it rightly that the shaman was required to find a patron spirit/s in a fashion similar to the later warlock?

[ewancummins]

I skimmed it years ago, am I remembering it rightly that the shaman was required to find a patron spirit/s in a fashion similar to the later warlock?

Yes, something close to that.

The shaman calls on favors from spirits.

There is something else relevant, but I won't write a spoiler here.

[thekristhomas]

Ok, then I don't know.

Going back to the voodan for a sec, is it clear that the voodan are a people? IIRC that's what it says in the MC entry, but are there actually any other than Chicken Bone? and what would make them/him racially different from other Souragne folk?

[thekristhomas]

re-reading the MC entry for Voodan says that there are other Voodan living in remote locales, but the MC entry for Voodan Zombies seems to suggest that the Voodan are the native of Souragne.

It seems to me like the voodan were originally a reskinned vistani, but that later designers felt they only really fitted in Souragne

[ewancummins]

I think it might make sense to link the Voodan to the Isle of Dread.