The War in the Core

[Manofevil]

Maybe I missed this in 12 pages of exchange but, how far should it be assumed that Darklord powers extend across a border, or former border, when the borders are in flux?

I don't think you missed it, what I've been working with is this,

If a potential Darklord (all the way down a terror track, path of corruption thingy) kills a Darklord, they become the new Darklord of the domain, eg. the Brain killing D'Honaire. This results in no real flux, all DL powers stop at the border. Canon example Jackie kills Claude

If an existing Darklord kills a Darklord, eg. Jacqueline Renier killing Drakov, they become Darklord of new united domain, and their Darklord powers extend fully to encompass new domain. IIRC there is no canon example of this, due to the difficulty of DLs meeting, generally, Drakov's execution is only made possible by Malochio teleporting him over the border (and Drakov doesn't really have DL powers)

If a Darklord is killed by someone who is not a potential DL themselves, the domain goes into flux. If a domain in flux is at the edge of the core, there is a fair chance that it will dissolve into the mist (eg Daglan) or if it's big enough break up into demi-domains (Darkon after the requiem). If it's surrounded by other domains though, then the DLs of those domains have a chance to claim some of that territory for themselves. Canon example, Gundarak after Gundar died was divided between Invidia & Barovia. The "claimants" must move troops/servants into the claimed territory, that much is clear from the Gundarak example.

It is less clear as to whether the claimant DL actually needs to enter the new territory personally, Gabrielle Aderre did certainly, but IIRC there is no mention of Strahd doing the same. My gut is that they do have to enter to actually lay claim to the new territory. In that case, I would say that their DL powers do not extend across the border, until such time as new borders have been established. I'm basing this partly on my reading of the situation in I10 where neither Godefroy or Strahd exhibited any DL powers (although, I get that the module predates the very concept of DLs).

Now what that means could be open to a fair amount of interpretation, for example, if Harkon Lukas were killed while in Invidia before the border stabilized, would his soul migrate to the nearest wolf back in Kartakass? Or would he instead be truly destroyed? My feeling is the latter, because then something is at stake for the DL, a real risk. My head is telling me the former, however, as the possibility of Strahd being truly destroyed while conquering Borca is not something I'm prepared to accept.

It's significant that you mention Godefroy because there's an important case to be considered. When Strahd and Azalin tried what they tried with the Apparatus and they were both returned to their respective domains afterward, Mordent was not added onto one of their domains, nor was it divided between them. Instead an entirely new Darklord came into being for an entirely new domain. I'm not saying that Jaqueline Renier's territory shouldn't expand some after Drakov's death, but Falkovnia also has a large selection of Darklords-in waiting that may also be 'lorded' to a smaller extent just by their own evil nature. Do the Mists not even notice them?

[thekristhomas]

I don't see why the Circle would actually want to be involved in controlling anything really in Falkovnia. They are a quasi-secret organisation. Gondegal is the only real reason they are even there, and I believe the only Knight of the Shadows with a public face. They're more likely to just pull up stakes and fight "from the shadows" elsewhere more in line with their actual objectives as an organization.

So, don't you think that they might take the opportunity to secure a foothold in the core? Would they participate in the regime change without gaining concessions from Jackie?

I get it if they would, and certainly tying themselves to the Renier regime in this way would be a major, problematic and probably unwelcome, policy shift. I had thought though that Gondegal would want some input after the work he has put into the Shadow Insurrection and as the Circle is often beleaguered in the Shadowlands, would take the chance on gaining access to resources such as new recruits, weapons, grain and possibly even taxes if they keep a city.

It certainly wouldn't cause Jackie any problems if the Shadow Insurrection retired from the field after assisting with the removal of Drakov loyalists. It may amusingly wrong foot her if she is expecting demands and they simply ride off into the sunset ("doesn't she look tired")

Having a permanent stake in Falkovnia is a bit more mission creep than the Circle can chew at this point. There are only maybe a few dozen members of the Circle. Permanently tying a number of them to various locations, especially places that will draw attention to the order, is going to suck more resources tham they readily have. People can, and do, disappear to go home or handle things in rebellions, they can't really run back to the Shadowlands if they are governor/instructor/what have you. The recruit argument becomes a time issue and the fact that it will draw attention probably from several DL and evil organizations.

Gondegal is the main reason there is any real involvement in the core, now that his little diversion is through, I suspect most of the other members of the Circle will push for a return to the actual business of the organisation, dealing with Ebonbane. They have their own problems at home, let the Falkovnians make their own path.

Sounds reasonable, so no formal alliance.

I imagine though that Insurrection troops would still be at the siege of Lekar, Gondegal would want to see it finished.

The siege of Lekar itself, seems quite complicated, firstly there is the Central Prison, which stands as a redoubt separate from the main body of the city, then there is the river, which according to the Gaz (but not the original black box map) divides the city from it's river quarter, the Radiant Tower, which as well as being the headquarters of the Ministry of the Arcane is a focal point for FoS activity and the citadel Draccipetri. Cannon would, I guess, simplify matters somewhat, but even then, can we expect street to street fighting?

[Resonant Curse]

Sounds reasonable, so no formal alliance.

I imagine though that Insurrection troops would still be at the siege of Lekar, Gondegal would want to see it finished.

The siege of Lekar itself, seems quite complicated, firstly there is the Central Prison, which stands as a redoubt separate from the main body of the city, then there is the river, which according to the Gaz (but not the original black box map) divides the city from it's river quarter, the Radiant Tower, which as well as being the headquarters of the Ministry of the Arcane is a focal point for FoS activity and the citadel Draccipetri. Cannon would, I guess, simplify matters somewhat, but even then, can we expect street to street fighting?

Yeah, I would imagine that they stick around until the last major battle, and that anyone not actually a nember of the Knights of the Shadows stays behind to hash things out (so the rebels themselves may try to request some of the things you stated, but Gondegal and the knights would leave them to handle that and have no part in it) and I imagine that it would indeed be a very bloody affair for the last bit.

Question though, if Jaqcueline is trying to claim Falkovnia, why would she bother to stop at "loyalist" forces and not just sweep the rebels and kobolds aside as well? It's not like they really were doing fantastic on their own, so they can't be that large in number and if she is zergling rushing wererats at them kobold warrens aren't going to be the tough nut to crack faced by upright medium sized creatures that can't fight hunched. She can easily spin the story tp removing trouble makers or outside warmongers or whatever. With all warring parties removed the Falkovnians can enter a "golden age of peace" or whatever she wants to say.

[jamesfirecat]

Yeah, I would imagine that they stick around until the last major battle, and that anyone not actually a nember of the Knights of the Shadows stays behind to hash things out (so the rebels themselves may try to request some of the things you stated, but Gondegal and the knights would leave them to handle that and have no part in it) and I imagine that it would indeed be a very bloody affair for the last bit.

Question though, if Jaqcueline is trying to claim Falkovnia, why would she bother to stop at "loyalist" forces and not just sweep the rebels and kobolds aside as well? It's not like they really were doing fantastic on their own, so they can't be that large in number and if she is zergling rushing wererats at them kobold warrens aren't going to be the tough nut to crack faced by upright medium sized creatures that can't fight hunched. She can easily spin the story tp removing trouble makers or outside warmongers or whatever. With all warring parties removed the Falkovnians can enter a "golden age of peace" or whatever she wants to say.

I think the plan is mostly zergling wererats in Richemulot, in Falkovnia it's going to be a mostly human army relying on their superior weapons (IE guns), superior moral and dedication (IE natural wererats in human form serving as unit leaders who still have a not inconsiderate amount of DR and so can survive getting stabbed in the chest by a halberd to inspire their commands) superior small unit tactics (IE groups of natural wererat commandos who do stuff like opening gates, lowering bridges, but stay out of sight of the human armies, the Richmulot equivalent of the SAS/Rangers) rather than just "I have thousands of infected wererats, kekekeke...)

Basically she wants to make it seem like Richemulot managed to conquer Falkovnia "properly" IE through non supernatural means. That's why she probably will not drown the resistance in wererat corpse, that and by working with them it helps build support for the entire "liberation not conquering" shtick she's going to be trying to convince her neighbors/the people of what used to be Falkovnia of, Jacqueline after all likes to be loved, and so if she can convince the people of Falkovnia they'll have it better under her rule than Drakov's (which is hardly the world's highest bar to clear) it will make the creation of "Great Richemulot" run that much more smoothly.

That said the kobolds are likely to get it in the neck if they make trouble for Jackie in so far as I'm pretty sure they live fairly far apart from any human witnesses, and kobolds are typically thought of as one of those races its okay to kill in D&D anyway....

[thekristhomas]

I never saw the kobolds coming out of this well, so that makes sense. I still wonder about the Basilisk though, my reading of the Gaz suggests that the Spawn of the Lizard has some support amongst the Falkovnians, and while they are unlikely to help kobolds, if my suggestion that the Basilisk is in fact not a kobold, but a human or race that would do better at pretending to be human than a kobold, then I could see him getting assistance escaping from wererat death squads.

The kobolds, for their part are almost as good at scattering as wererats imho, so maybe enough would survive the initial assault to return to their guerrilla style resistance in the Crumbling Hills.

The ongoing opposition after occupation is lining up to be the Basilisk and the Spawn in the east, and the vampyres of Lekar in the west, presuming the vampyres survive the siege.

[thekristhomas]

It's significant that you mention Godefroy because there's an important case to be considered. When Strahd and Azalin tried what they tried with the Apparatus and they were both returned to their respective domains afterward, Mordent was not added onto one of their domains, nor was it divided between them. Instead an entirely new Darklord came into being for an entirely new domain. I'm not saying that Jaqueline Renier's territory shouldn't expand some after Drakov's death, but Falkovnia also has a large selection of Darklords-in waiting that may also be 'lorded' to a smaller extent just by their own evil nature. Do the Mists not even notice them?

It is a point, firstly I would point out that while Azalin was certainly DL-worthy, he must have been because he became a DL soon after, Darkon didn't exist for Mordent to be added to. Also both Strahd and Azalin left Mordent, returning to Barovia, thus not fulfilling the condition of occupation. It may be that actually, while Godefroy displayed no DL powers, he was the DL for the duration, but I think the canon is that there was no darklord because Mordent hadn't fully joined the demiplane. (The events of I10 are something of a project of mine, one day I'll make it make sense)

But with the specific case of Drakov, I think we have to follow the idea that if a darklord is killed by someone "worthy" of being a DL then that person "inherits" the domain, lock, stock and barrel, and Jackie is most definitely worthy of being a DL.

The unique situation only arises because Malochio used his abilities to allow Drakov into Richemulot, and the result is I think equally unique and unlikely to be repeated.

Of course, this is all just head canon and is never really meant to be explicitly stated, and as such is entirely open to change and revision, did you have a specific NPC who you felt might gain a domain from a section of Falkovnia, and what section?

[Manofevil]

I can't but I'm no Falkovnia expert. I seem to recall Vlad D having quite a few twisted subordinates. You raise a good point about Jaque' being a Darklord-worthy killing a Darklord but The DPs might just take advantage of the shift to award smaller domains to people they'd had under observation for some time. Guess it all depends on how much fun you want to have with it.

[thekristhomas]

I can't but I'm no Falkovnia expert. I seem to recall Vlad D having quite a few twisted subordinates. You raise a good point about Jaque' being a Darklord-worthy killing a Darklord but The DPs might just take advantage of the shift to award smaller domains to people they'd had under observation for some time. Guess it all depends on how much fun you want to have with it.

I've had a thought, Vladmir Ludzig, Vampyre Lord of the Shadow Cities! The siege of Lekar goes badly for the vampyres, it gets worse when the Richemuloise cannon reduce the building Vladimr is in to rubble and the survivors take to the sewers. The main drains have been damaged by bombardment above, and soon the vampyres find themselves squeezing through side tunnels searching for a way out, but the only way is down.

Soon, the small group find themselves in a realm of blacks and grays, empty and vast, a mirror of the city above. Vladmir had heard the legends, but was stunned by the reality. The vampyres searched for a way to access the city above, for days it seemed like they searched, hunger gnawing at them, weakening them.

Vladimir was disgusted by the thought of eating his companions, but he had to get back to Lekar at any cost, he ordered the group to split up to cover more ground, and then stalked them one by one.

When he drained the last of them, the Shadow Cities separated from the domain of Falkovnia which they mirror and became a domain in their own right, with Vladmir as it's Darklord. He is the only permanent resident, not undead but not allowed to die, driven mad and bestial by the hunger he has become what he always imagined himself to be, a perfect predator that stalks any creature unlucky enough to stumble upon his domain.

It's a bit rough, but it's an idea

[thekristhomas]

I've already mentioned that the FoS have interests within the Radiant Tower, do we see them taking any action to protect those interests?

Or are they more likely to operate a "smash and grab" when it becomes clear that the Radiant Tower will fall, taking any magical items and research, and destroying any evidence of their involvement?

If the latter, they might send a team of agents to clear out the place during the early stages of the bombardment. As Falkovnians don't train battle-mages, the mages of the Ministry of the Arcane will presumably have to be dispatched, and then the tower demolished to make it seem that the mages were killed by stray cannon shot

[Dark Angel]

I've already mentioned that the FoS have interests within the Radiant Tower, do we see them taking any action to protect those interests?

Or are they more likely to operate a "smash and grab" when it becomes clear that the Radiant Tower will fall, taking any magical items and research, and destroying any evidence of their involvement?

If the latter, they might send a team of agents to clear out the place during the early stages of the bombardment. As Falkovnians don't train battle-mages, the mages of the Ministry of the Arcane will presumably have to be dispatched, and then the tower demolished to make it seem that the mages were killed by stray cannon shot

An argument could easily be made that while Vlad despises and underutilizes the mages of the realm (as his sons and many top officials likely do as well), there is a chance that they have some allies within the Falkovnian military machine (perhaps also underutilized soldiers). When the writing is on the walls, these sympathetic people may be assigned to destroy the Tower, kill the mages, and make off with anything of value. They may instead give them the heads up and take off with them. Or the remnants of the Lekar defense force may evacuate any and all potential supporters and resources as they flee. It is easy to overlook magic users when you are in charge and possess that mindset that the sword is law. When a 5th level fighter can command squads of soldiers to wipe out a village, that's fine. When you no longer have squads of soldiers to do that, a single low (ish) level mage can drop a fireball with similar effects. I know they don't rely on evocation at all, but when they may be your only resource you do what you can.

[thekristhomas]

So, FoS agents within the Ministry of the Arcane itself dispose of non-FoS mages, clear the Radiant Tower of anything of use, then destroy the building to cover their tracks, but maybe not before the Lekar defense force has ordered the mages to join the fray, yes?

[thekristhomas]

let's just pop a copy of this here as well so we are all singing off the same hymn sheet as it were

[thekristhomas]

So the first thing that leaps out at me is that the liberating forces will all be approaching on the eastern bank of the Vuchar, making the River Quarter unapproachable until the Bralgaoljanglengzeit bridge is taken.

The centre of the eastern wall, being the furthest point from the Bastion of Iron and the Gate of Justice seems a likely place to attempt a breach, but would Richemuloise cannon be able to be moved over the canals that cross that area?

The canals effectively section off areas of the city, assuming Falkovnians really are the type to burn their bridges, Richmuloise forces might find themselves, upon breaching the eastern wall, stuck in the south east section of the city, which also appears to be one of the areas persecuted by the Talons and therefore with far less in the way of cover

The Shadow Insurrection is unlikely to have had access to cannon, and it is entirely possible that they have limited access to artillery at all, so maybe forced to assault the Bastion of Iron itself, rather than breach the walls.

So, The Shadow Insurrection will find itself in the Generals' Quarter, which you have to assume is the most well defended section of the city, and bars the way to Draccipetri, the seat of government

By the time either group fights it's way to the harbour, I would imagine the outcome of the battle would be a considered a forgone conclusion, and therefore they would hopefully not burn the harbour.

I can't imagine that any of the remaining Drakovs would surrender at this point, Draccipetri would be nearly impossible to take via direct assault, so rather than complete the arduous task of dragging the cannon through the city and levelling it, I imagine that it would be taken overnight by natural wererat special forces units who would kill the inhabitants so none might tell of their nature.

Once all this has been achieved, I imagine that the River Quarter might surrender, unless one last Drakov scion is goading the troops. If this is the case, might this be reason to begin diplomacy with the "Greater Lamordian" government? If the loyalist forces become isolated from their only remaining ally, it might be enough to tip the leadership into surrender.

[thekristhomas]

Speaking of one last Drakov, I've been thinking about Vigo and the Central Prison, which surely must've been taken before attempting an assault on the city.

IIRC no one has any reason to suspect that Vigo is anything other than human (well half-Vistani but you know) so would likely under estimate his capabilities, also I'm unsure as to what is needed to kill/harm him as a cambion/half-fiend/whatever, so it seems entirely possible that he could survive the taking of the Central Prison and somehow get to Lekar for the main event

[jamesfirecat]

So the first thing that leaps out at me is that the liberating forces will all be approaching on the eastern bank of the Vuchar, making the River Quarter unapproachable until the Bralgaoljanglengzeit bridge is taken.

The centre of the eastern wall, being the furthest point from the Bastion of Iron and the Gate of Justice seems a likely place to attempt a breach, but would Richemuloise cannon be able to be moved over the canals that cross that area?

The canals effectively section off areas of the city, assuming Falkovnians really are the type to burn their bridges, Richmuloise forces might find themselves, upon breaching the eastern wall, stuck in the south east section of the city, which also appears to be one of the areas persecuted by the Talons and therefore with far less in the way of cover

The Shadow Insurrection is unlikely to have had access to cannon, and it is entirely possible that they have limited access to artillery at all, so maybe forced to assault the Bastion of Iron itself, rather than breach the walls.

So, The Shadow Insurrection will find itself in the Generals' Quarter, which you have to assume is the most well defended section of the city, and bars the way to Draccipetri, the seat of government

By the time either group fights it's way to the harbour, I would imagine the outcome of the battle would be a considered a forgone conclusion, and therefore they would hopefully not burn the harbour.

I can't imagine that any of the remaining Drakovs would surrender at this point, Draccipetri would be nearly impossible to take via direct assault, so rather than complete the arduous task of dragging the cannon through the city and levelling it, I imagine that it would be taken overnight by natural wererat special forces units who would kill the inhabitants so none might tell of their nature.

Once all this has been achieved, I imagine that the River Quarter might surrender, unless one last Drakov scion is goading the troops. If this is the case, might this be reason to begin diplomacy with the "Greater Lamordian" government? If the loyalist forces become isolated from their only remaining ally, it might be enough to tip the leadership into surrender.

*The Shadow Insurrection is unlikely to have had access to cannon, and it is entirely possible that they have limited access to artillery at all, so maybe forced to assault the Bastion of Iron itself, rather than breach the walls.*

Remember this is D&D not actual warfare.

Breaching the walls is always only one reasonably powerful caster away. One "Stone to mud" or similar spell could doubtlessly do wonders.