The War in the Core

[thekristhomas]

Leo would have to be revived firstly of course, CoS disagrees with the Gaz as to where his remains reside, but IIRC agrees with the novel(?), either way, someone (most likely Lyssa) needs to recover him and revive him, hopefully by using some sort of blood ritual reminiscent of Hammer Horror films, which I have always felt that Strahd has denied us by automatically returning from destruction

The suggestion that Leo becomes DL while still trapped really interests me, I've been thinking about the movie "the Keep" (there's also a book) which is about Nazi soldiers occupying a Romanian castle wherein is trapped an ancient evil, I had been thinking of it with regards to the Vaasi soldiers occupying Castle Ravenloft when Strahd returns, but it also fits with a freshly awakened Leo still regaining his strength.

These would require Lyssa to be the main actor, which might be a problem given her sleeping condition. I've been thinking that her "druidic" followers (maybe an heretical offshoot of the Strahd worshipping druids from CoS) have figured out a way to contact her while she slumbers, possibly provoking the interest of the Nightmare Court (which might have, as has been suggested allowed Lyssa to get in tight with them/him)

So this druidic circle, (Circle of the Blood Rite, maybe?) becomes a network of agents for Lyssa, with high ranking members entering her dreamscapes (which seems high risk, maybe a high turn over of high ranking members ) to relay info and receive orders. It might be fun to set these against a group like Lady Watcher's "book club" or other Strahd "loyalists" (without wanting to derail the thread, I think the CoS addition of several groups of "loyalists" was really useful to the setting)

[DustBunny]

The suggestion that Leo becomes DL while still trapped really interests me, I've been thinking about the movie "the Keep" (there's also a book) which is about Nazi soldiers occupying a Romanian castle wherein is trapped an ancient evil, I had been thinking of it with regards to the Vaasi soldiers occupying Castle Ravenloft when Strahd returns, but it also fits with a freshly awakened Leo still regaining his strength.

Idle thinking...

Have Lyssa come across a ritual somehow (maybe provided by our Jackal friend) which will 'awaken Strahds mortal enemy'. She performs it and Leo awakens _but_ is still locked in his box (it said awaken, not free). However as Patriarch of the Dilisnya's he has some minor mental influence on members of that bloodline. He can send urges to do things, or maybe even send a dream or two. As Strahd is away, Leo gains some control over Barovia, filling in as the Darklord until Strahd gets back. He wants to escape, but even he doen't know where he is hidden.

Strahd, exhausted from his battles in Borca is ambushed (or a teleport spell misfires due to shifting borders) and thrown into the Border Ethereal. As he has exhausted his spells, he can't step back into the real world, and the disconnect causes his full Darklord powers to wane. Slowly starving he has to convince ghosts and other ethereal entities to do his bidding in order to get back. A lot of the ghosts actively try and sabotage him as his feeding created a lot of them. And feeding on 'ethereal blood' means it becomes harder to return to reality.

So you now have a cold war between two high power vampires, using catspaws to be the first to escape and become the ruler, while keeping the other trapped. The land shifts and twists as one gains the upper hand, only to shift again as the pieces on the board shift.

[thekristhomas]

Was looking at the map earlier and realised just how big Barovia would be if Strahd managed to fold in Borca. It made me wonder, would it be possible that Lyssa, Leo and maybe even Gundar end up as "demilords" of the "defunct" domains under Strahd as a kind of liege lord.

It occurred to me that with the annexation of Borca, Strahd might feel finally justified in taking the title of King, the title his father held

[The Lesser Evil]

I think if you wanted to make Lyssa and/or Leo darklords, they could really use their some further fleshing out of their characters (which kinda limits what you can do with their curses and thus the pathos. As it is, they are kinda two-dimensional "young" upstarts/power grubbers.

As far as Leo goes, I think his hate for the Zaroviches (and consequently, desire for attempting to take over Barovia) is inherited from his (unknown to bot of them) adoptive father, Pildlwik, which in turns stems from the von Zaroviches stopping the War of Silver Knives, which in turn prevented Pidlwik from avenging his motherr Izabela Dilisnya. In addition, he has a degree of bitterness towards his own family because he knows he's not a real/true Dilisnya but a Cosco/Dorfinya child (producted through an illicit affair.). Ater murdering a large part of his kin in Strahd's wedding, I think that would prompt some severe daddy issues if the DPs cursed him with being haunted by the voices of dear ol' Pidlwik on how he's not only failed to avenge him but done a great disservice over the Dilisnya line. Kinda like how Batman is haunted by the ghosts of his parents in one of the B:tAS episodes with the Scarecrow

On Lyssa, Gaz I states her sleeping is slowly becoming less of a problem. and decreasing in duration. So this is less of a problem when considering her a darklord than she was at the time of when she was at the time of her poisoning. As far as curses go, perhaps as her sleep is getting shorter, it's begging more horrible. Perhaps she is being targeted by the Nightmare Court and the spirits of all whom she's betrayed and killed by donning the mask of love. If you wanted to reverse the darklord/victim gender roles of Strahd and Tatayana, then Lyssa could be Strahd to Thomas Zhavov's Tatayana (with a possible complication of "Tom" stalking/hiding from her.)

[thekristhomas]

I think if you wanted to make Lyssa and/or Leo darklords, they could really use their some further fleshing out of their characters (which kinda limits what you can do with their curses and thus the pathos. As it is, they are kinda two-dimensional "young" upstarts/power grubbers.

As far as Leo goes, I think his hate for the Zaroviches (and consequently, desire for attempting to take over Barovia) is inherited from his (unknown to bot of them) adoptive father, Pildlwik, which in turns stems from the von Zaroviches stopping the War of Silver Knives, which in turn prevented Pidlwik from avenging his motherr Izabela Dilisnya. In addition, he has a degree of bitterness towards his own family because he knows he's not a real/true Dilisnya but a Cosco/Dorfinya child (producted through an illicit affair.). Ater murdering a large part of his kin in Strahd's wedding, I think that would prompt some severe daddy issues if the DPs cursed him with being haunted by the voices of dear ol' Pidlwik on how he's not only failed to avenge him but done a great disservice over the Dilisnya line. Kinda like how Batman is haunted by the ghosts of his parents in one of the B:tAS episodes with the Scarecrow

On Lyssa, Gaz I states her sleeping is slowly becoming less of a problem. and decreasing in duration. So this is less of a problem when considering her a darklord than she was at the time of when she was at the time of her poisoning. As far as curses go, perhaps as her sleep is getting shorter, it's begging more horrible. Perhaps she is being targeted by the Nightmare Court and the spirits of all whom she's betrayed and killed by donning the mask of love. If you wanted to reverse the darklord/victim gender roles of Strahd and Tatayana, then Lyssa could be Strahd to Thomas Zhavov's Tatayana (with a possible complication of "Tom" stalking/hiding from her.)

I've just got used to thinking of Pidlwick as a jester mechanical killer golem!

I think, to some extent, all three are twisted reflections of Strahd, and the placement of them as demilords within the Greater Barovia
serves as much to be a curse upon Strahd as they are themselves cursed.

As such I don't think their DL curses need to be hugely detailed. I think Leo's curse should be related in someway to his period of captivity, if in fact he ever does get free. If not then job done.

Yes, I like the idea of Lyssa becoming haunted in her rest, even if the poison is completely worn off as a vampire she still needs to rest in the day

Was Gundar's curse ever detailed? I lean towards Gundar never fully recovering from his bestial aspect, having been "harnessed" by Lyssa for use as muscle.

EDIT: And of course, that Strahd is the "overlord" of Greater Barovia would be a curse for all of them

Something for the wider group, these possibilities to some extent erase the Vampires Without Borders/Tripartite Fang possibilities from earlier in the thread, which I felt was a lot of fun, but added little to the setting (please don't take this as being a criticism of any body's contribution ALL of which I consider valuable, I'm mainly trying to be a good editor) so what are people's preferences?

[DustBunny]

Something for the wider group, these possibilities to some extent erase the Vampires Without Borders/Tripartite Fang possibilities from earlier in the thread, which I felt was a lot of fun, but added little to the setting (please don't take this as being a criticism of any body's contribution ALL of which I consider valuable, I'm mainly trying to be a good editor) so what are people's preferences?

I personally have no preference as how the battles and aftermath work out, but one thing I would like to see is said Darklords get kicked hard in the teeth by the DP's. They got the prizes they wanted (sort of) now it comes time to pay the piper and the DPs are going to make it hurt.

An example from Kartakas as part campaign I went through.

Harkon managed to gain a slice of Sithicus after the GC. He loved this as he was actually increasing his piddling little lands size in a slight defiance of his curse of never having a 'real' kingdom. However the catch was that the influx of elven blood and songs result in children appearing whose singing ability made Harkon sound like a yowling cat. If one of them ever went for the Meistersinger challenge he is in real trouble. He's got more lands but the DP's were laughing as the bill was presented and watching the blood drain from his face. As the old saying goes 'Be careful of what you wish for...."

But back on topic - With the case of the 'demi' darklords you need a reason why Strahd can't just squish them and be done with it. Otherwise, as long as the Darklords (new and old) curse the day they got their 'prizes', I would be happy.

[thekristhomas]

Jumping back a few posts for a second...and I can't believe I didn't think about this sooner...

When we were looking for a suitable bride for Jacques Renier we concentrated on Falkovnians to cement Renier rule there, but the conquest is quite complete, might not a treaty be more pressing? In which case, at least two possibilities present themselves.

If the old alliance with Mordent needs to be shored up, then one of the twins (good luck there, although of course one is already a lycan)

It seems to me that it would serve Richemulot better to normalise relations with Lamordia/Dementlieu by marrying Jacques to Gerda, Baroness of Lamordia and Head of the Council of Brilliance.

This could potentially unite the territories of Lamordia, Falkovnia, Dementlieu and Richemulot politically, virtually guarantee Lamordian inclusion in the Four Nations (replacing Borca) and forming a power bloc within that treaty that would easily dominate Mordent.

What form this unification might take is problematic. Lamordia virtually governs itself, and it's populace unlikely to accept foreign interference. The republican tendencies of Dementlieu would gel well with the ways of "pre-war" Richemulot, but if we suppose that recognised monarchy is Jacqueline's aim, this might prove a stumbling block.

One possible arrangement (please suggest more) could be a sort of dual monarchy, Jacques I of House Renier, King of Greater Richemulot and Baroness Gerda von Aubreker of Lamordia, Presidente of Dementlieu, allowing Lamordia and Dementlieu to keep their institutions, but folding whatever military into a single force, with a unified foreign policy but localised government.

What would Mordent make of this?

It's been pointed out that Mordent is serious about the Treaty of Four Nations, but the threat that it was formed to protect against is gone (Drakov), as have three of it's signatories (D'Honaire, Ivan & Ivana) and it finds itself suddenly surrounded by a neighbour whose ruling house (Renier) has something of a claim to Mordent itself.

Mordent has however survived the war this far relatively unscathed. With the exception of the fallout from the schism between the Mordent and Darkon branches of the church of ezra and any refugees from the main theaters of combat, Mordent has been insulated from the fighting.

I think for the first time in this discussion, we need to look at George Weathermay and the type of ruler we think he might be. A quick review of events between the 3rd ed products and the beginning of the war are in order.

Jules Weathermay dies while George is still on the hunt for Natalia, the twins act as regents in his stead

While George stays in Arbora, the twins attempt to continue their research part time (the division of labour leading to tensions between the sisters)

Natalia attempts to use Gennifer as a weapon against her sister, having the ability to trigger Gennifer's lycanthropy, believing this will destroy George.

The attempt fails, the twins having set a trap using the simple ruse of exchanging clothes, Laurie incapacitates Natalia, Gennifer kills Natalia.

George returns to take his place as ruler of Mordent. (these are based on Ryan Naylors ideas in An Illustrated History of the Core, with some additions by me)

How George would respond to the death of Natalia is interesting. She was his nemesis, and the only woman he loved. Also after years of hunting it was his nieces that succeeded, that might break some men. On the other hand, it's now over because with the death of her trigger Gennifer's lycanthropy will never again manifest, in fact Genn is now immune to lycanthropy, quite a bonus now that the twins can return to monster hunting full time.

Being returned to Mordent, would George inevitably investigate Gryphon Hill? His decisions as ruler might well be different if he has had contact with Godefroy. Would Godefroy's usual tactic of threatening dead loved ones work against George? George has the potential to be a serious opponent for Godefroy, particularly if the ranger has reinvested in the living family he has, rather than dwelling in regret.

That aside, his history with van Richten and his own adventures surely make him one of the most genre savvy of the non-DL leaders. Would that make treating with the wererat Renier or the mind controlled von Aubreker difficult? I'm guessing that their various PR machines are good enough for it not to be a problem but YMMV.

My thoughts are that in most circumstances, if approached for a renegotiation of the treaty of Four Nations he would accept, possibly be in favour of increased economic co-operation, but would be resistant to increased political union.

[thekristhomas]

But back on topic - With the case of the 'demi' darklords you need a reason why Strahd can't just squish them and be done with it. Otherwise, as long as the Darklords (new and old) curse the day they got their 'prizes', I would be happy.

I'll be honest, I never fully got to grips with the whole "overlord" "demilord" hierarchy thing, and from what I've gathered on the forums, it was never particularly popular, does anyone know how it worked/works?

My thought was that the demilords Lyssa, Leo and Gundar would be restricted to their "domains", Barovia Proper, Borca and Old Gundarak respectively, while Strahd was free to move throughout "The Kingdom of Barovia", but there would have to be a compelling reason for Strahd not to simply crush them, even giving them "undying soul" would just mean he could crush them again, and as Leo would testify Strahd doesn't let stuff go

[thekristhomas]

I suppose they could end up as lords of small pocket domains within Barovia which Strahd could not enter, the smallness of their territories would strangle each of them, while their existence out of reach would frustrate Strahd.

A big part of me wants this to be a spectacular victory for Strahd though, where there would actually be some kind of benefit to him for having these "vassal" darklords.

My initial thought was that, if we assume that the trio had some ritual/plot to usurp Strahd's DLship, maybe they succeed in absorbing some of the energy, which Strahd then used against them in some way to reinforce his control of the larger territory, maybe some kind of mystical triangle/power ritual/macguffin.

My thoughts on Darklord success at the moment are, if the success doesn't bring the darklord to any of their "true" goals, and if it binds them closer to the land, then the DPs might allow it. Strahd defeating the usurpers and enslaving them somehow doesn't bring him any closer to Tatyana or escape, neither does the annexation of Borca, neither did the annexation of Gundarak.

Another bit of semi-headcanon that might be pertinent is that the DPs seem to prefer DLs who desire to rule (whether they allow said DLs to rule is a different matter), both Nathan Timothy and Dr Dominiani are referred to as being "unwilling to rule" with regards their loss of DL status, and Soth seemed to escape through a similar unwillingness to engage.

[DustBunny]

A big part of me wants this to be a spectacular victory for Strahd though, where there would actually be some kind of benefit to him for having these "vassal" darklords.

This is where we diverge.

IMNSHO Strahd (and other popular Darklords) have been pampered waaaaay too much in the canon and need to be taken down a peg or three. Not so that PC's can beat them, but to make their life a misery showing that can indeed lose more than they think they have lost by their curse.

The whole Tatyana thing keeps coming across as a minor nuisance that occurs between Strahd straddling Ravenloft and beating his chest after smiting yet another group of powerful foes and accumulating even more power. It is degrading the impact like Azalins 'no more spells' curse where he keeps getting retrofitted with new spells as the plot demands.

A war can shake things up a bit, so is a good opportunity to remove said pegs.

My thoughts on Darklord success at the moment are, if the success doesn't bring the darklord to any of their "true" goals, and if it binds them closer to the land, then the DPs might allow it. Strahd defeating the usurpers and enslaving them somehow doesn't bring him any closer to Tatyana or escape, neither does the annexation of Borca, neither did the annexation of Gundarak.

I prefer to have them think they are about to obtain their goal/espcape their curse and then have the victory turn to ash in their mouths, not just maintain the status quo.

Dark Powers: The *snigger* 'Lords' are moaning about how they are suffering? We haven't even stared... *cracks knuckles*

Eg: Strahd gets a genuine opportunity to get Tat's, _but_ it requires a major sacrifice. The chance comes when he is involved in a critical phase of an enemy enroaching on Barovia. He can either chase her or lose a bit of Barovia forever. If he goes for Tat's he loses that bit of Barovia, but then finds out she is in that region, now forever out of his reach due to his obsession instead of looking at the big picture. If he defends the land, he loses her by not jumping at the opportunity. Heads the DP's win, tails Strahd loses. He will be tormenting himself with endless 'What ifs" for years and his ego takes a major beating.

Mind you, it is your war so ignore me if I'm too far off track.

[thekristhomas]

A big part of me wants this to be a spectacular victory for Strahd though, where there would actually be some kind of benefit to him for having these "vassal" darklords.

This is where we diverge.

IMNSHO Strahd (and other popular Darklords) have been pampered waaaaay too much in the canon and need to be taken down a peg or three. Not so that PC's can beat them, but to make their life a misery showing that can indeed lose more than they think they have lost by their curse.

The whole Tatyana thing keeps coming across as a minor nuisance that occurs between Strahd straddling Ravenloft and beating his chest after smiting yet another group of powerful foes and accumulating even more power. It is degrading the impact like Azalins 'no more spells' curse where he keeps getting retrofitted with new spells as the plot demands.

A war can shake things up a bit, so is a good opportunity to remove said pegs.

My thoughts on Darklord success at the moment are, if the success doesn't bring the darklord to any of their "true" goals, and if it binds them closer to the land, then the DPs might allow it. Strahd defeating the usurpers and enslaving them somehow doesn't bring him any closer to Tatyana or escape, neither does the annexation of Borca, neither did the annexation of Gundarak.

I prefer to have them think they are about to obtain their goal/espcape their curse and then have the victory turn to ash in their mouths, not just maintain the status quo.

Dark Powers: The *snigger* 'Lords' are moaning about how they are suffering? We haven't even stared... *cracks knuckles*

Eg: Strahd gets a genuine opportunity to get Tat's, _but_ it requires a major sacrifice. The chance comes when he is involved in a critical phase of an enemy enroaching on Barovia. He can either chase her or lose a bit of Barovia forever. If he goes for Tat's he loses that bit of Barovia, but then finds out she is in that region, now forever out of his reach due to his obsession instead of looking at the big picture. If he defends the land, he loses her by not jumping at the opportunity. Heads the DP's win, tails Strahd loses. He will be tormenting himself with endless 'What ifs" for years and his ego takes a major beating.

Mind you, it is your war so ignore me if I'm too far off track.

Actually I don't think you're off track at all, I think we just are looking at Strahd's successes from different angles.

For myself, it has always seemed like Barovia is the distraction, conquest and leadership are things that Strahd has done, mastered almost. For him to progress he must choose Tat's, which he would if it weren't for the distractions provided by the land or his enemies. Strahd isn't so foolish though that over the centuries he wouldn't see the repetition (anyone watching Westworld?), so a separate progression of seeming success through conquest and leadership is allowed him by the DPs because it does nothing to ease his curse, which is his need for Tatyana.

I think you're absolutely right that presenting Strahd with an opportunity to either get Tatyana or crush his enemies would be an a suitable "irreconcilable goods" dilemma (we know that Strahd will choose to crush his enemies, but he doesn't ) but worry that it's a bit "on the nose"/been done, can we think of another goal of Strahd's that might be substituted? (although the iconic nature of the Strahd/Tatyana thing seems to good to miss, particularly with the involvement of Hazlani forces in the south)

[DustBunny]

Actually I don't think you're off track at all, I think we just are looking at Strahd's successes from different angles.

Good. I didn't want to be seen hijacking your thread and running off laughing or annoying you too much.

but worry that it's a bit "on the nose"/been done, can we think of another goal of Strahd's that might be substituted? (although the iconic nature of the Strahd/Tatyana thing seems to good to miss, particularly with the involvement of Hazlani forces in the south)

I see it more along the line as showing that there is literally _nothing_ that Strahd wont do to get Tatyana. The initial setup had him doing his pact of blood thing and killing Sergei showing how far he would go to get something he wants or to keep what he has. The only things he gives a damn about is Barovia and Tatyana and the rest can burn.

But he seems to do more than sit around waiting for Tatyana 2.0+ to turn up, and when he loses her it seems to be a matter of 'Bugger. Oh well, I'll wait till the next generation and try again". And then amuses himself with some political scheme or conquest. As a very high level necromancer there should be no depth to which he will sink - clones, golems, soul stealing, mind rape, etc to get her back. He should make Jon Irenicus look like a rank amateur.

He definetly is not an idiot and recycling patterns would be noticed, which is why you stir things up with a war. Now by sacrificing one of his desires could gain the other. Though knowing Strahd he will try to get both and lose both.

Hazlan. Mmm. Maybe this version of Tat's has an aptitude for magic and went to Hazalan to study. He doesn't know about her at first because of the whole head shaving & tattoos. And when Strahd fights her (Hazlan testing the borders, a raiding party, retribution for a Barovian (real or false) incursion?) he discovers that he has made a bitter and spiteful enemy of someone who is more than capable of hurting him in addition to being the one he wants.

If you wish to skip the Tatyana thing, Leo does seem like the best bet. He has a history with Strahd, they both hate each other, and would happily burn the world to get rid of their enemy and claim their due.

I'll have to think a bit on how Leo doesn't get curb stomped right off the bat and yet still be a believeable foe rather than a annoying mosquito... hrmm...

*hold muzak - Your suffering is important to us. Please hold the line*

On Edit: Do you prefer to keep Leo in his box, or to be running around.

[thekristhomas]

Hazlan. Mmm. Maybe this version of Tat's has an aptitude for magic and went to Hazalan to study. He doesn't know about her at first because of the whole head shaving & tattoos. And when Strahd fights her (Hazlan testing the borders, a raiding party, retribution for a Barovian (real or false) incursion?) he discovers that he has made a bitter and spiteful enemy of someone who is more than capable of hurting him in addition to being the one he wants.

The reason that I mention Hazlan is that the current canonical Tatyana incarnation is an Ezran Priest living in Hazlan http://fraternityofshadows.com/wiki/Tara_Kolyana and the Iron Crusade (Hazlani/Vaasi alliance) turning towards Barovia might be the impetus she needs to face her fate.

It has been noted before, that this Tat would have survived longer than most, being in her middle years by these events. That might have an impact on how Strahd sees her, once the illusion of youth has faded, he might realise how shallow his "passion" really was. It might also have an effect on her response, after a lifetime of service to others and with the perspective of age, might she not finally give herself to him so the all might be free? I suspect that Strahd might reject this aged version of his love, or subconsciously wish that she die so that the next incarnation be born...

[DustBunny]

The reason that I mention Hazlan is that the current canonical Tatyana incarnation is an Ezran Priest living in Hazlan http://fraternityofshadows.com/wiki/Tara_Kolyana and the Iron Crusade (Hazlani/Vaasi alliance) turning towards Barovia ....

Oh. Her.

I'll let that speak for my opinion on Tara's retro-revelation in Gaz1.

Assuming there isn't a mysterious shower of meteors... Leo & Lyssa then?

[thekristhomas]

The reason that I mention Hazlan is that the current canonical Tatyana incarnation is an Ezran Priest living in Hazlan http://fraternityofshadows.com/wiki/Tara_Kolyana and the Iron Crusade (Hazlani/Vaasi alliance) turning towards Barovia ....

Oh. Her.

I'll let that speak for my opinion on Tara's retro-revelation in Gaz1.

Assuming there isn't a mysterious shower of meteors... Leo & Lyssa then?

she could always have died