Dealing with difficult PCs

[Count Spatula]

I'm a longtime FoS lurker and old school DM who runs a 2e RL campaign that I and my group very much enjoy. While I love to DM RL,
I've often been described as 'too nice'... which may be accurate. I do my best to avoid killing my PCs, if at all possible-- but there are limits to my patience. While I relish my ability to instill paranoia in my PCs, I wanted to ask the FoS for non-lethal ideas to discourage overly cautious players(example: refusing invitations for lodging, meals, etc.)-- who tend to suck the fun out of adventures. While it would be easy to set a pack of worgs on any PC who demands to camp outside, I would like to avoid too harsh of a response to what they might view as simply being careful. Any ideas would be greatly appreciated. I want greater control of my campaign without the appearance of bullying.

[Five]

Without knowing specifics,

If the PCs are using independence as a sort of safeguard/shield then I'd target that self-sufficiency and start flipping rocks. New by-laws against squatters (town/village money grab); hunting licences to avoid poaching fines (local game is overhunted for some reason or other); quasi-martial law due to increased bandit activity in the area...anything to gently coax the PCs away from their safety blanket/MO. Follow this cause with some mundane yet rewarding (fun) effects such as a new out-of-game/in-game games (tarot poker, darts-for-free drinks/meals/lodging, etc), colourful NPC characters/contacts/potential allies, quick (non-monstrous) side quests (find a missing child, sentimental object), etc. Anything to get them a little more interactive with the setting/NPCs/community without whacking them with the stick...just yet.

Introduce a lucrative/heavy importance mission/quest where they compete with another group. A neck-and-neck race against the clock yet if the PCs remain overly-cautious then this other group will succeed due to the fact that the PCs are essentially sandbagging themselves (a semi-scripted in-game loss/DM warning/Player revelation). The gracious patron could act as your voice, in a sort of post-mission analysis/debrief, when they thank the PCs for their outstanding effort but explain to them how the other group (now proud owners of a grand estate, possibly with title; town/village saviours, etc) succeeded where they failed. And, while this loss is still fresh in their minds, introduce your real adventure and see how they react. One foot outside the box could be enough to have the PCs evolve both individually and as a group.

Some quick ideas anyway. Obviously you need to tailor-fit ideas to satisfy each player (if it's OOC knowledge of the setting that's at the core of the problem) or PC (if it's legit roleplaying) if you are to target the group dynamic and mould it into something else...

[Count Spatula]

Some very excellent ideas. Thank you so much! I like the idea of pseudo rewards as a carrot to enable the type of PC behavior that best fits the adventure. I need to find a way to best balance the omnipresent sense of dread and isolation with the occasional helpful/"trustworthy" NPC to promote less standoffishness and more amenability to the DM's plans.

[Rock of the Fraternity]

A very simple way of motivating players is the weather.

[The Lesser Evil]

There seems to be a few different things going on from your description.

It sounds like you're running into significant frustration with how resistant they are playing. There seems to be a difference in perspective in what they're doing. You're finding they are taking the wind out of your sails, but in their eyes they're simply being careful.

I also hear a bit of contradiction. On the one hand, you say you enjoy using your ability to instill paranoia, but on the other hand, you seem frustrated in the avoidant behavior they are showing.

Are these accurate assessments? What do/have your players say when you talk with them about playstyle issues?

[ewancummins]

I'm a longtime FoS lurker and old school DM who runs a 2e RL campaign that I and my group very much enjoy. While I love to DM RL,
I've often been described as 'too nice'... which may be accurate. I do by best to avoid killing my PCs, if at all possible-- but there are limits to my patience. While I relish my ability to instill paranoia in my PCs, I wanted to ask the FoS for non-lethal ideas to discourage overly cautious players(example: refusing invitations for lodging, meals, etc.)-- who tend to suck the fun out of adventures. While it would be easy to set a pack of worgs on any PC who demands to camp outside, I would like to avoid too harsh of a response to what they might view as simply being careful. Any ideas would be greatly appreciated. I want greater control of my campaign without the appearance of bullying.

In game, I'd emphasize things like the locals not going out by dark, how they shutter their windows and bar their doors, and how people look at the PCs with a mix of pity and bewilderment if they should refuse an offer of shelter for the night.

Then, out loud, the DM mumbles something about checking the random encounter table.

Actually roll on a table. Use whatever result comes up. If it is worgs, it is worgs.

[ewancummins]

Have you been using treacherous NPCs very often?

Why are the players seeing a night outdoors as preferable to a night indoors?


IF you think they are paranoid about NPCs because they have met one too many wolves in sheeps clothing:

I think the cure is a steady run of NPCs who are what they seem. And use plenty of good-aligned folks. The jolly innkeeper has no side business in secret murder and robbery.
The kindly village priest isn't an evil cultist in disguise.
That hot chick in distress? She's just good looking. She isn't a red widow, vampire, or evil enchantress.

[Count Spatula]

Thank you for the replies. ewancummins-- I think you might be onto something as far as just using random encounter checks outside at night. I'll just make it a general rule and that should set things straight. The first RL adventure I ran was "House on the Edge of Midnight" from Dungeon magazine-- which may have put them on the defensive from the start. Lesser Evil-- It's mostly one PC who can be a bad influence at times. I'll be starting a new campaign with a new group soon and I'm going to try what worked the first go around and eliminate what didn't, if possible. "The Created" went extremely well and I'm looking forward to even better results. Always appreciate any tips or advice!

[ewancummins]

House on the Edge of Midnight always looked fun to me, but I never did run it.

[Rathbone]

Great thread!

[Count Spatula]

ewancummins-- It was extremely fun to run. I put a crazed look in my eyes when we reached the point where I roleplayed the host's revealed intentions to harvest their eyes in a very startling, loud voice. The sheer look of terror on my PCs faces(coupled with the fact that a few of them actually jumped in their seats!)made the whole adventure for me-- and sold me on RL in general. Ever since then I can't get enough of it. So far my favorite moment as a DM!

[DustBunny]

the weather.

Absolutely! There are two books I would recommend for that - 'Dungeoneers Survival Guide' and 'Wilderness Survival guide' - while they are 1st ed books, they translate to 2e pretty easily. They lay out the environmental hazards which PC's can encounter as they traipse across the country or through caves.

In many cases the environment can kill you faster than monsters. No more prancing through a desert in plate mail, strolling through a blizzard with a light cloak is a bad thing, and previously 'useless' spells (eg: Leomond's tiny hut, Create Water, etc) become must have life savers.

So the next time the PC's camp outside - a quick rain storm (did any one pack a tent?), no fire (cold isn't it?), no sleep (who was keeping watch?), rotten food (this meat meant to be green?) - and they will be begging for a NPC to let them inside.

Even if said NPC speaks in a bad Translyvanian accent to and wears opera clothes.

[Five]

the weather.

Absolutely! There are two books I would recommend for that - 'Dungeoneers Survival Guide' and 'Wilderness Survival guide' - while they are 1st ed books, they translate to 2e pretty easily. They lay out the environmental hazards which PC's can encounter as they traipse across the country or through caves.

Excellent books. "Wilderness Survival Guide" is hands-down the most used non-core rulebook in my pile, a distant second being "Player's Option: Skills and Powers". Wilderness might seem like quite the mouthful to have to chew and regurgitate but it's really not. Not recommended to those that don't like to have to deal heavy-side with nonweapon proficiencies though. I say read the book anyway if you have access to it; its attention to details/insight can only help a DM who wants to stake a claim in environmental-based settings such as Ravenloft, Dark Sun, Gamma World, etc.