Reverse Powers Check?

[Five]

My campaign currently center on the machinations of Karl Von Salzburg, creator of the flesh golem Angelique. He's currently locked up and she's hiding apart from the other PC's, but he recorded his creation process for her, along with all the other insights he got from the Dark Powers, on three wax cylinders using a dictation device. The PC's repaired the device and have started listening to the recordings to get evidence against him
..and here's where things get interesting.

One PC is a doctor by trade, and has served as a juxtaposition for Karl's evil genius. This player has spoken out repeatedly on how the knowledge Karl gained isn't evil all by itself, it's about how it's used. He volunteered to transcribe the records for use in the investigation after the rest of the party suffered horror checks.

These cylinders were magically imbued with Karl's obsession, and have become like cursed magic items. They are basically a scientific version of the Raiment of Clarity. It's going to be a serious spiritual feat for him to listen to these with the intent to learn, without being corrupted. The player knows that. He's prepared to wager his PC's sanity on this, because it's worth it if he can become a brilliant life-saving doctor.

I want to support the player in this. If he takes all the appropriate precautions and the dice don't betray him, I want to give him an actual reward for his character, in terms of his skills and stats. But what's the reward for NOT being corrupted?

-empties pocket and slides two pennies down the counter, pausing to re-pocket a tic-tac and brush some lint onto the floor-

Specific Edition rules aside,

1. I'd allow a big boost to Profession skill for starters. This is what it is: an increase in pure medical knowledge.

2. I'd let the PC gain a moderate insight bonus into golems in general, if only to open up character development potential (your in-house Van Richten in regards to the Created), and a significant one in regards to Angelique specifically.

3. The PC now has the ability to represent the aura of Karl von Salzburg. In regards to Angelique this ability now allows the PC to take that knowledge and wear it much like Mrs. Voorhee's sweater. Its influence on Angelique is limited only by the imagination of the PC and yourself. XP for creativity; be open to allow the player his DM's sockblock. Give it lesser or long-shot odds to work on any other Created, unless the PC can gain access to the creator's original notes. If they do then this unique insight of clarity (universal translator of sorts) applies to the creator's Created as well. Story this as all creators share a sort of common, or, metaparental aura that the Created instinctively pick up on. And the PC now is cursed with an affinity with the minds of such individuals, even if residual.

And the price:

4. Use the player's words against him. "This player has spoken out repeatedly on how the knowledge Karl gained isn't evil all by itself, it's about how it's used". Good. Excellent. He can have this knowledge, but if he records it or teaches it to others, even cryptically or incidentally, then have the Dark Powers raise an eyebrow. This essentially acts as a spotlight on the PC in the form of constant scrutiny and a now lifelong struggle of having unnatural knowledge (!) that is simply wrong to share with any other person. Propagating Evil sorta thing (i). As DM use it as a personal/modified "Hippocratic Oath" for the PC, albeit one with some soul-damning consequences for any and all (intentional or accidental) violations. Knowledge can be used altruistically, or selfishly. To gain anything but the drive to end this mockery of Nature is a long, hard road to Hell. And as we know, "the Road to Hell is paved with good intentions..."

i. If you allow non-evil golems in your campaign then spin it so that the PC is now spiritually/morally-linked, a Godfather if you will, to all those Created that are formed after his "how to" reaches the ears and minds of future creators. Essentially, the PC rolls a Powers Check each time one his evil "children" performs evil deeds. PC retirement into Dark Lord status thus becomes a cool option when viewed from a bird's eye view of the campaign...

The moral high road here for the PC, as I see it through my own RL goggles, would be to keep that knowledge in his head and use it to identify other abominations that are skulking about RL, like some sort of serendipitous bloodhound. Once he's tracked them down, he must put Nature right and destroy these Created. Even those "difficult" ones, currently hiding beneath the skin of sympathy. Bonus points if the PC finds the creator's original notes, absorbs the information into his new mental vault, and destroys them, forever scattering those particular insights to the four winds. As to the creators themselves, prisons and asylums await (if not a life of hiding), and for those with guilty consciences, restful sleep.

A doctor, a healer, who has the knowledge and ability to heal all injuries, to undo Death itself, but who can't apply it in any way, shape, or form. The ultimate cure-all that must be kept away from Humanity at all costs. Knowledge that is but can never be. Chains for the soul, that...

That's all for now. I had other stuff, but the Mists claimed them. Bastards.

[Mistmaster]

Your DPs are too evil for my tastes, my friend.

[Five]

Not Evil, Neutral.

The PC has free will to choose what to do with this unnatural, and now stolen, knowledge.

The DPs sit at the crossroads, watching and waiting, to see which path the doctor decides to take. For they are but a moral maze with two entrances and two exits..

And to reflect this free will, I'd go as far as to give the PC two profession skill scores. The first score is the unmodified skill that represents ability gained through natural means/knowledge. The second is the modified skill that represents ability gained through the use of unnatural means/knowledge. And each time the player wants to use his professional skill he must choose which to use. As DM I would ask them straight-up what score they want to use, knowing damn well that I'm going to start getting into the player's head. It's a not-so-subtle prompt that there may be consequences...

[Mistmaster]

But knowledge is neutral, beside, Golem creation is not evil, strictly speaking.

[Five]

But knowledge is neutral, beside, Golem creation is not evil, strictly speaking.

Knowledge is neutral, but it's application is or can be a slippery slope.

The PC wants to become a brilliant life-saving doctor. He can become this without translating and absorbing the dark obsession(s) of a madman. That knowledge wasn't meant for him to begin with, and knowing the potential price but still charging forward to possess that knowledge is both reckless and selfish. Again, he doesn't need unnatural knowledge to become a brilliant life-saving doctor. All he needs to do is give up adventuring and focus all of his time and effort into his medical profession. But he wants to shortcut this and use this unnatural knowledge for natural application. Isn't that the original drive that all (most) of these "mad scientists" had in the beginning?

And if the PC decides to publish papers and whatnot on this knowledge, for profit/prestige, then he is being irresponsible on top of being selfish and naïve...just like the original creators. Knowledge such as this should not be shared!

And this flirting with the unnatural is a razor's edge that must be walked very carefully. Which is why I feel what I wrote: the moral high ground, the only decent and right thing to do with this unnatural knowledge would be to use it to heal not just the people affected by these dark obsessions, but more importantly Nature itself. To undo the madness of the creators (heal), to destroy the Created (heal), and thus stitch the wounds inflicted upon the Natural world (heal). In short, he can become a brilliant life-saving doctor, though it's more metaphysical than anything.

And Van Richten tells us that Golem creation is evil. Or, that all golems will turn evil over time, should they not be stopped. So if all golems will turn evil then golem creation is evil, even if the creators are blinded to this fact by their obsession. The road will constantly lead to propagating Evil...

Though, I'm not one for "canon" in roleplaying games, so DMs may not always carry such absolutes. I'm just speaking from what I believe to be "classic themes".

Also, there are a bunch of assumptions made here. I really don't know what the player thinks, and thus have no insight into the mind of their PC. I just laid out some thoughts anyway in an effort to help a DM better frame a problem and solution.

Edit: In short, you'd (the DM) be giving the player a really neat reward for this noble spiritual battle, in that you'd essentially be giving their PC unique abilities. Almost to the point of a custom class. But it's very RL, IMO, in that if they aren't careful they could very well find themselves on the Path of Corruption...

The trick is in allowing this metamorphosis happen without turning your campaign into an episodic golem hunt. Spotlight still needs to be shared with the other players, though a bone needs to be thrown to that particular PC from time-to-time in order to make the reward a rewarding roleplaying experience for the player.

[ewancummins]

Using something like 'cursed magic items' to obtain forbidden lore, but with the proverbial good intentions, eh? Yeah, this PC is already going down the dark path without yet realizing it. Lovely.

PC about three failed Powers Checks from now...


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1qNeGSJaQ9Q

[Manofevil]

Using something like 'cursed magic items' to obtain forbidden lore, but with the proverbial good intentions, eh? Yeah, this PC is already going down the dark path without yet realizing it. Lovely.

PC about three failed Powers Checks from now...


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1qNeGSJaQ9Q

Only if he wants to. Does he have a reason to want to, yet?

I've been trying follow this and I've gotten lost in some places.

First, the thread title. Is this actually about reversing an already established Powers Check? I didn't think the rules allowed that but that may be just me.

I understand that this PC being discussed is studying some knowledge that has driven others to commit dark acts but does this material include an element of indoctrination that the PC might be vulnerable to. By way of comparison, a person could probably find a recipe for illegal drugs on the internet but unless the person is desperate for cash and knows where they could sell it, why would they make it. Unless there's an exterior curse that gets triggered, I'm really not seeing any motivation for the PC to go dark. Do PCs get Powers Checks for carelessness? God, there are so many nuances to these gray areas.

[ewancummins]

The way I see it:


The Created are evil beings born of obsession, perverted science or dark magic, and the malign influence of spiritual forces beyond mortal ken.
The notes of a man who creates such horrors aren't going to be wholesome, risk-free reading. And these aren't just notes, but something like a ''cursed magic item''

I'd say a horror check would be in order for the PC studying the mad scientist's notes. Maybe a madness check?

I wouldn't have him make a powers check just for the study, of course. But I'd leave the temptation open before him to abuse the lore he'd gleaned.

What sort of lore is in there besides creating flesh golems?

Let's say he learns the method of grafting a dead man's limb onto a living human being.
Months later, one of the party's enemies maims and cripples one of the PC's loved ones...
If he grafts a corpse limb, the DM rolls a powers check (in secret, as always).

Or maybe the notes allows bonuses to improved healing skills similar to what the Anatomist kit from the Complete Book of Necromancers possessed, with a similar requirement to dissect cadavers in order to maintain the advantage. How many bodies is the PC likely to have donated to him by admirers of science?I'd say about zero. So where can he obtain corpses?
Cue the 'resurrection men.'
This could easily lead to situations in which the PC will make powers checks.

[Mistmaster]

The Created are neutral beings, in spite of van Richtens observations.

[Five]

The Created are neutral beings, in spite of van Richtens observations.

Side:

Published "advice" aside, this would be a cool play, in a psych horror opera sorta way. A whole domain of normal/unknowing Created, who run the gamut of alignment (for gaming purposes), and one in which the native-born/Created PCs stumble upon the dark secret of themselves and their carefully constructed world. Frankenstein meets 1984. Talk about Horror and Madness! To touch the face of "God", or, to strangle the bastard dead...

Edited to expand/clarify idea in a hasty post

[ewancummins]

The Created are neutral beings, in spite of van Richtens observations.

Rule Zero is always in effect, so yes, this could be the case.

I prefer golems born of obsession to be evil-aligned or at least tending strongly that way.

Golems made with high-level magic are more likely neutrals. They are like
advanced 'robots' powered by elemental spirits. But in Ravenloft, even this magical process could become corrupted, as with summoning elemental and getting dread elementals.

[Wolfglide of the Fraternity]

First, the thread title. Is this actually about reversing an already established Powers Check? I didn't think the rules allowed that but that may be just me.

As I understand it, this thread is about developing something of an antithesis to a powers check---a benefit to using something found in the dark for good rather than evil. It is not about undoing a failed powers check.

On page 104 of the Ravenloft Player's Handbook, there is a section on redeeming oneself and escaping the path of corruption. It goes so far as to say, "It may even be possible for a darklord to redeem his blackened soul---but in all the known history of Ravenloft, not one ever has."

[ewancummins]

First, the thread title. Is this actually about reversing an already established Powers Check? I didn't think the rules allowed that but that may be just me.

As I understand it, this thread is about developing something of an antithesis to a powers check---a benefit to using something found in the dark for good rather than evil. It is not about undoing a failed powers check.

On page 104 of the Ravenloft Player's Handbook, there is a section on redeeming oneself and escaping the path of corruption. It goes so far as to say, "It may even be possible for a darklord to redeem his blackened soul---but in all the known history of Ravenloft, not one ever has."

My two-cents on 'reverse powers checks' in the sense just described:


Powers checks should remain always dark and dangerous, and not be used to provide rewards and mechanical advantages for playing a hero. Heroic characters already have access to various good-aligned or heroic spells, classes, feats, etc in the game rules, and adding a 'reverse powers check' will tip the scales too far toward Good, reducing the horror of the setting. No 'light-lords' for me, either.


But my way is surely not the only way. As ever, the DM decides this kind of stuff.

[Mistmaster]

The scales must be balanced, in my own hopinion and in canon they are too in favour of evil. Hence my attempts to even the scales on the light side.

[ewancummins]

The scales must be balanced, in my own opinion and in canon they are too in favour of evil. Hence my attempts to even the scales on the light side.

I have really enjoyed your revised and expanded domain notes. And I think you have succeeded in your attempt at shifting the relative strengths of Good and Evil in your version of the setting. Design fulfills intent.

I did something similar with my take on Forgotten Realms, which I found had been pushed much too far towards easy victories for the Good Guys, incompetent villains, and too many evil gods bumped off.