Reaction to WotC announcements re: Vistani (Drow, orcs, etc.

[tomokaicho]

. There could still be villainous Vistani, such as the ones who kidnapped VR's son for Baron Metus.

Rumor has it that the Vistani kindapped famous economist Adam Smith when he was a boy. Look it up.

Somehow I don't think the story about VR's son being kidnapped by Vistani to sell to Baron Metus is going to pass the whitewash by WotC's 'sensitivity reader'.

Imagine you had a roleplaying setting set in an analogue of the Antebellum South. Imagine furthermore that a sensitivity reader whitewashed historical facts about this period, and misrepresented the slave owners as misunderstood angels, and the slaves as vicious bigots that were enslaved for their own protection. That's basically what the sensitivity reader is there for at WotC.

[Five]

. There could still be villainous Vistani, such as the ones who kidnapped VR's son for Baron Metus.

Rumor has it that the Vistani kindapped famous economist Adam Smith when he was a boy. Look it up

Just did. You should have said Romani. Vistani aren't real.

[ewancummins]

I suspect that WizBros will have trouble with Gothic Horror because the genre simply relies too much on elements that run counter to the sensibility of the 'new game' as the designers want it to be.


Ravenloft is an oddity. Gothic Horror/heroic fantasy crossover in a game that was never a horror game in its basic orientation and structure. But it works well.

My alternative Barovian gypsies suggestion isn't intended for WizBros. It's just an idea for fellow Ravenloft DMs who might like another 'gypsy' group that is distinct from the Vistani.

[tomokaicho]

Just did. You should have said Romani. Vistani aren't real.

I am using WotC nomenclature because WotC now says that the Vistani were actually racist caricatures of Romani all along.

[ewancummins]

Just did. You should have said Romani. Vistani aren't real.

I am using WotC nomenclature because WotC now says that the Vistani were actually racist caricatures of Romani all along.

Indeed!


The Vistani, being a group of 'gypsies' that fit with various Gothic literature and horror movie ideas about how gypsies look and behave, are probably not something that can be made politically correct. But WizBros is really not helping itself.

[Five]

Just did. You should have said Romani. Vistani aren't real.

I am using WotC nomenclature because WotC now says that the Vistani were actually racist caricatures of Romani all along.

Very well. Just wanted to confirm. Do what thou wilt.

n another old thread, I suggested that the Barovian gypsies could be separated from Vistani if one wished. They might be a clan of inbred Borjians who drink vampire blood to prolong their lives. Maybe Madame Eva can tell fortunes with a deck of playing cards, but this could be a special power, limited to Barovia.
And if a Vistani link is needed, make her a half-Vistani or a darkling.

In this setup, true Vistani would likely despise the Barovian gypsies.

There could still be villainous Vistani, such as the ones who kidnapped VR's son for Baron Metus.

This would be a good insert. In fact it sort of unifies 2E, 3E and 5E versions of the Vistani (as I understand them; I never was overly fond of them; too much, too..."metaversal") and introduces numerous new strings that a DM could pluck and pull. Happy medium of non-Strahd/Madam Eva slave/puppet PCs ("good Vistani") mixed with amoral lackey ("stereotype") NPC Vistani. I use PC and NPC to keep the old "good versus evil" original intent of Ravenloft alive. Of course the table's choice is right.

What thread was this mentioned in?

[ewancummins]

People have different things they don't like in the game, for a variety of reasons. It's a question of taste. Do you like this? Is it fun?
Some people don't want anything sexy. Keep it family-friendly. Some people object to demons and devils. Others do not like the use of game constructs using the names of Shinto, Hindu, Taoist, etc. gods or spirits -- parts of real, living religious traditions.
Some people have a hate-on for gunpowder in their fantasy. Or sci fi stuff. Or even dinosaurs.

PM to Mischief

[Wolfglide of the Fraternity]

Second thought: has 2E just become the incidental "R rating" for Wizards? Humour: Kinda feeling like I need to settle back into it now, like I don't belong in 5E. Haha

Wait until they reach back before 2E and discover the Monster Manual for 1E.

Gynosphinx nipples!

That sort of art continued up through 3E as well. It is kind of uncomfortable to read an ogre stat block when the nymph on the opposite page is flashing me. The ogre drawing might have a more positive opinion.

By 4E, they seemed to figure out how to cover up torsos, except for one picture of Zuggtmoy in profile in the Demonomicon.

I think what hooked him was the cartoony (Sutherland?) picture of the mimic-as-sucker-punching-treasure-chest.

He draws and tells stories about mimics of various sorts. Toilet mimic, fridge mimic, chair mimic, book mimic, etc.

I have to use a toilet mimic sometime. That would be a deadly encounter.

[ewancummins]

Ogresses near you are looking for companionship!

[ewancummins]

What thread was this mentioned in?

http://fraternityofshadows.com/forum/vi ... te+vistani

A few pages in, I summarized the alternate 'travellers/seers' suggested by various posters, included me.

[Wolfglide of the Fraternity]

Somehow I don't think the story about VR's son being kidnapped by Vistani to sell to Baron Metus is going to pass the whitewash by WotC's 'sensitivity reader'.

Imagine you had a roleplaying setting set in an analogue of the Antebellum South. Imagine furthermore that a sensitivity reader whitewashed historical facts about this period, and misrepresented the slave owners as misunderstood angels, and the slaves as vicious bigots that were enslaved for their own protection. That's basically what the sensitivity reader is there for at WotC.

I don't feel like this is a logical analogy. It would take an incredibly dense sensitivity reader to not realize that an unrealistic representation of the South such as this would be inordinately offensive to black people.

That being said, I think I see the point you are trying to make: there is a risk that readers could overcorrect and remove all villainous Vistani. That would be a disappointing and illogical occurrence, I agree. I just don't think that would be equivalent to making Gone with the Wind: the Roleplaying Game.

[ewancummins]

Thread drift from moi...

I may start a new thread for art.

[Gonzoron of the FoS]

I think we can all come up with over-the-top strawmen of what could be a clearly racist roleplaying game. It's not hard. There's a continuum between that and some unobtainable vision of a game that won't offend anyone, even if they are trying hard to find offense. Reality will always be somewhere in between. And saying "it's just fantasy" denies the even the possibility of the problem. Just because it's fantasy doesn't mean it can't be influenced by the racism the world is soaking in. The vistani are clearly inspired by the gypsies of gothic literature, who are in turn clearly inspired by real Romani, and the stereotypes thereof. If Wizards runs some new work featuring vistani by a Romani sensitivity reader, there are two possible outcomes: Either the reader says, "yeah, that's fine" or they say, "no, that's going to be offensive to my people. Can we change it like this.." Neither of those outcomes is going to stop the project from going forward (unless it's heinously and irredeemably offensive, in which case, good), and either way, the product no worse for it. So I see no downside and all potential upside. Is it going to cause a huge influx of Romani players, no. But when you can be kind, why not be?

[ewancummins]

I think we can all come up with over-the-top strawmen of what could be a clearly racist roleplaying game. It's not hard. There's a continuum between that and some unobtainable vision of a game that won't offend anyone, even if they are trying hard to find offense. Reality will always be somewhere in between. And saying "it's just fantasy" denies the even the possibility of the problem. Just because it's fantasy doesn't mean it can't be influenced by the racism the world is soaking in. The vistani are clearly inspired by the gypsies of gothic literature, who are in turn clearly inspired by real Romani, and the stereotypes thereof. If Wizards runs some new work featuring vistani by a Romani sensitivity reader, there are two possible outcomes: Either the reader says, "yeah, that's fine" or they say, "no, that's going to be offensive to my people. Can we change it like this.." Neither of those outcomes is going to stop the project from going forward (unless it's heinously and irredeemably offensive, in which case, good), and either way, the product no worse for it. So I see no downside and all potential upside. Is it going to cause a huge influx of Romani players, no. But when you can be kind, why not be?

1 No one elected the sensitivity reader the representative of all Roma people. He is just some guy who capitalizes on his ethnic background (one wonders if WizBros will make sure they get a real Roma) to land a consulting job. That's assuming WizBros actually pays him.

2 Have there even been any complaints from Roma gamers? I have yet to see one.

3 I think you are missing the basic objection. It's the preachy, self-righteous, look-at-how-woke-we-are tone from Wizbros that so many people find annoying or worthy of mockery. It's not that people are against any new version of the Vistani. We have a range of views about that. I like the 2e ones. Some guys who have posted like the 3E Expedition Vistani, or the 4E adoptive culture. Or the 5E Curse of Strahd evil minions.
It's the preachiness from Wizards. That tone is condescending, un-fun, and pretentious. One gets enough of this in real life from politicians and media types.

[Gonzoron of the FoS]

1 No one elected the sensitivity reader the representative of all Roma people.

Granted, but running it past every Roma isn't feasible. Running it past one gets at least a sanity check that you're not writing something egregious.

2 Have there even been any complaints from Roma gamers? I have yet to see one.

Agreed. Considering the tiny amount of Romani left in the world, it's not too surprising. But does it make it ok to play with hurtful stereotypes if no Roma ever reads it?

3 I think you are missing the basic objection. It's the preachy, self-righteous, look-at-how-woke-we-are tone from Wizbros that so many people find annoying or worthy of mockery. It's not that people are against any new version of the Vistani. We have a range of views about that. I like the 2e ones. Some guys who have posted like the 3E Expedition Vistani, or the 4E adoptive culture. Or the 5E Curse of Strahd evil minions.
It's the preachiness from Wizards. That tone is condescending, un-fun, and pretentious. One gets enough of this in real life from politicians and media types.

This, I just don't get. Trying to do better is preachy? Should they do it in silence? Maybe I'm looking at it with rose-colored glasses, but I see a company (here for company read: group of people, not monolithic inhuman corporation) trying to reconcile perceived missteps in their past with a new cultural shift. I'm willing to cut them a whole lot of slack while they navigate these seas, because it isn't easy to confront your own biases, and it's not like there's a roadmap of how to get to a better place. Every one of these "problematic" products has someone who loves it, and that doesn't make them a racist. Sometimes you just want to be a ninja. Sometimes you just want to bash some evil orcs. Sometimes you want your players to get clues from a mysterious wanderer of questionable motives. There's got to be a way to accommodate those play patterns without alienating people, but it's not clear how to get there.