Religious or irreligious?

[tomokaicho]

In the later 2E supplements, and particularly 3E, religion took a prominent place in the Ravenloft setting, particularly with the religions of Ezra, Belenus, and the Lawgiver (Bane). This religious fanaticism is inline with medieval European tropes. If I recall correctly, the original Ravenloft setting was quite irreligious, and this is emphasized in the novels - Heart of Midnight, and Vampire of the Mists, for example. In both of these novels there are religions, but the folk are not really interested. They are at once superstitious, but have turned their backs on the gods.

I prefer irreligious Ravenloft. The gods can't help because by and large the people have spurned the gods. Whether because of belief in science, like Lamordia, or because people believe that the gods have abandoned them, like Barovia. In this scenario, religions like the Church of Ezra, the Lawgiver, and Belenius are imposed from the top on an apathetic populace by elite factions claiming the divine right to rule. That doesn't mean the the folk of the Ravenloft setting are not superstitious. Far from it - superstition is rife, and real religious belief, which could act as an antidote, is in short supply.

What do you prefer? The core domains as a stand-in for medieval religious fanaticism, or the earlier version of Ravenloft, the irreligious Ravenloft?

[Mistmaster]

In my Mistworld religions play a big role. The Iron Church of Zhakata the Lawgiver, the Church of Ezra in its various branchs and the Church of Andaral the Morning Lord are all proselitizing all around the world, with various degrees of sincerity and zeal of both priesthood and followers. Some domains have national religions who might or might not venerate aspects of other deities.

[Five]

I like both. Ravenloft severed from the gods, but in its world there are organizations that have been established to provide answers to questions that inevitably arise through the fear and superstition of its inhabitants. Some are built and fuelled by "legit" belief, some by design.

Problems I had with this were the Dark Powers had to be top dog for them to play the role that is implied. They need elbow space from the gods. It's easy enough to just say the gods are cut off from Ravenloft, but then priests and clerics as a character class becomes problematic.

Since our divorce from Forgotten Realms we decided to drop the level of magic, almost to that of a Howardian level. It exists, but it's "NPC". Clerics/priests on the other hand are too classic for the genre to outright ban. Too many themes and hooks come with them and the organisations they serve. Good versus Evil/Light in the Black, corruption, control, hope, healing, etc etc.

So when flipping through 2E's The Complete Priest's Handbook I saw my out. In the Sample Priesthoods section is one called "Divinity of Mankind (Philosophy)". In short it's a philosophy that is able to generate magical power. This was the perfect bridge. The gods are cut off from Ravenloft (leaving the Dark Powers its sole masters), and religion does exist, allowing clerics and priests as character classes. And the differences between the established religions could then be as is, if I wanted to use any or all of them. The divinity of mankind powers all, though it carries a different label (godname and mythology) amongst the believers. Everything is as-is (as I want it to be) but there's a universal truth and horror under all: "God" is dead. But the human spirit is not...

[onmyoji]

I like both attitudes as well, depending on the characters involved. Some might find comfort in religion, but others might see religion as a mere false hope—or perhaps even another tool of the Dark Powers. Either way, regardless of what the PCs and NPCs think, the gods have no power whatsoever in my Ravenloft (unless they somehow found a way to become physically present in the demiplane).

— onmyoji

[Mephisto of the FoS]

Religious, as there are few things in real world history more horrifying than religion. Zhakata is one of my favourite gods, the last party I was playing with had an exiled priest of Zhakata the Provider. Also I like the concept of forgotten Gods and Saints in 3rd edition like Zagaz or the dogfaced Saint Ronges (similar to the othodox christian icons of Saint Christopher). I like the concept of Ezra and the various dogmas, Yutow is one of my less favourite ones and Bane or as is now known Lawgiver is a more similar to how I view religion and the various different aspects of Belenus depending if you are from Forlorn, Tepest or Nidala and the Wolf God has an interesting viewpoint. The Morninglord is a result of syncretism of the old Barovian religion of Andral and Lathander in "modern" Barovia. Now for Darkon having many different religions depending on the various races but also having a state religion with a really dark theme is interesting and inspired by medieval/gothic art which is very grotesque and an old time favourite of mine. Diamabel is an interesting case of holy war as the crusade of Elena Faith-hold and Diosamblet is an interesting case of a "man". Since I mentioned something about Markovia I would personally change the story of Saint Markovia from Expedition to Castle Ravenloft and CoS. I would keep the background of these two stories as what the peasants of Barovia believe of her, thinking she was a morninglord priest who tried to challenge Strahd and died. I would have Saint Markovia being a pre-Demiplane of Dread formation saint of Andral who cured difformities, then when it was forgotten except by her name I would have a priest by the same name challenge Strahd only to die in his castle, but reinventing the saint for followers of the Morninglord (typical religious syncretism), then we have the abbot of the Abbey of Saint Markovia in CoS transforming people into mongrelemen (the opposite of what the original (Andral) Saint Markovia did). And then we have the religions of Ancient Egypt, Hindu and loa which are all very interesting on their own. The Celebrants of Humanity is a nice counterpoint to the doppelgangers but I have to say that the religion of Hala is for me a bit difficult to comprehend, I would see her more as an Ezran saint than an actual goddess (call me an Ezran). In general I have difficulty comprehending/adapting the concept of witches and warlock, the weave in 3rd edition game mechanics as men and women exhibit very differently their powers (divine spells-wizard spells). Tristessa and Lolth were a peculiarly good adition in the demiplane and I prefer Tristessa being a Shadow Fey than a dro elf also the different view on Arak made it more interesting but also created false information on that domain that can be used. The Anchestral Choir suits the domain but in general it is also a bit difficult to play as it was based on a novel as a background theme. Then for Gundarak the religion of Nerull has been changed to that of Erlin Icould say that these are different names of the same God although followers of Erlin can actually cast spells. And talking about difficulty casting spells I see Ravenloft abandoned by the Gods being more an outlander priest opinion since some spells don't work. Imagine the horror of outlander priest's seeing evil acts but be unable to detect if that person is evil, to them it would seem as their God has abandoned them, since Ravenloft then was more like a weekend in hell (as it is probably again in the 5th edition) it suited the concept. I also liked the various Secret Societies including the Dark Delvers and the Hated Mother. The Faith of the Overseer is an interesting experiment...

[DocBeard]

Religion, and the growing secular movement both play huge roles in the backdrop of Gothic-Romantic fiction. I feel like having the faiths of Ravenloft be disjointed and largely irrelevant is an unneeded relic from the 2e days when the crossover nature of the setting was more more prominent.

Actually let me put that another way; if you're going for weekend in hell joints, that works great, since part of the horror is that your god has left you on hold. An all-Ravenloft campaign has less need for this, and I argue divine invocations and rituals having most of their full power works fine in the setting. Man versus god is a big part of the Gothic canon, and spiritual journeys and rituals are a huge part of the occultism trend of the era. I don't really see a problem with a divination ritual letting you talk to a saint of Ezra or Hala, or an invoker calling down an angel of Bane for divine retribution, or even seance projecting a party into the Astral Sea or Elemental Chaos for a desperate trip to the spirit world straight out of the Golden Dawn rituals, because ultimately the problem of a lack of an intimate relationship with your god is still there.

Personally I really like the tone scrubbing the D&D gods into expies gave the setting; like the gods are distant enough that nobody can even agree on their names. A proper Ravenloft setting revival should do something with that; I have a rough plan to if I ever run a game but we'll see if that happens. Still, "Our Nameless Gods, Forsaken By the Mists" has a nice ring to it. On the other hand, I was never a fan of the full Celtic and Egyptian pantheons just hanging out for some reason I'm going to admit I can't give a consistent reason for. "The Forgotten Dynasty of the Green Hand" just plays to my d&d sensibilities better than "Osiris".

I think the best take on the people of Ravenloft on the whole is 'tired'. You want them to be more than misery puppets, you want your heroes to feel like saving people has value, but the land takes its tole; but there are so many extreme environments in Ravenloft it'd be shocking if people didn't cling to faith, even if that faith is a puppet of the Mists or a devil, primordial, aberrant, archfey or other horror in a mask.

t I have to say that the religion of Hala is for me a bit difficult to comprehend, I would see her more as an Ezran saint than an actual goddess (call me an Ezran). In general I have difficulty comprehending/adapting the concept of witches and warlock, the weave in 3rd edition game mechanics as men and women exhibit very differently their powers (divine spells-wizard spells).

As far as Hala goes, I think that Warlocks really kind of fill that good guy with a questionable power source better than divine casting witches, but Hala still forms an important role as an example of a cloistered religion; one focused on separation from the masses instead of administering to them. You can have a lot of fun with a convent or abbey of Hala and how that throws off the power dynamics of isolated, often haunted Ravenloft communities. They also serve as great miniature points of light and safety in otherwise inhospitable domains, but not TOO safe because the Halans are strange, with strange customs and folkways and it's oh so easy to subvert an unwary cloister.

I think the most interesting line on the Halans comes from Azalin in GzV, where he states that S missed an eerie coincidence; how often the Halans come to ruin the moment they become too involved in the communities they serve. GzV is in general full of a ton of interesting stuff and Azalin getting a bit sick of S's refusal to get herself killed for data is a trip. Hala also serves as a nice counterbalance to the more organized and strict Ezrans and Lawgiverites, without being so small as to be nearly irrelevant like the Morninglord, who really suffers in 3e for having to share the sun god role with Belenus.

[Mistmaster]

without being so small as to be nearly irrelevant like the Morninglord, who really suffers in 3e for having to share the sun god role with Belenus.

The very reason I conflated Belenus Andaral and the Morning Lord in one single deity venerated in multiple aspects with the second being the most organizedof the the three.