Critical Hits vs undead and vampire staking (any edition)

[Mephisto of the FoS]

One of the most iconic scenes in movies with zombies and undead in general is dismemberment, also staking a vampire in combat is also iconic. The 3E rules say that undead are immune to critical hits, but that is problematic when you think of the zombie that is cut in half only to come crawling towards the hero, the skeleton whose head crashes by a powerful blow or the vampire who dissolves into a fiery burst when it's head is cut off or the vampire who starts running around the hall without arms in Andy Warhol's Dracula, Blood for Dracula (1974).

In my game I am using the critical hit table from 2nd edition Player's Option: Combat & Tactics , for those not familiar with that supplement, when someone fails the fortitude save (or death save in 2E) against a critical hit they roll a die for which part of the body is affected and depending on the weapon used, the type of character being hit (humanoid/animal/monster) and another die for the severity of the hit, the injury can be from a no injury, being stunned, minor injury etc to bleeding, losing an eye, losing an arm, falling into a coma or even death. Although it is not a really fast system when playing, I use it since it is always fun to see what chance has in stored for a character or monster and also helps to graphically describe the hit which also helps both in role playing the injury and making the game more realistic (a peasant can still kill a 20 lvl paladin) hehe.

My take on critical hits against undead is:

If a corporeal (naturally... or unnaturally) undead fails a fortitude saving throw when hit by a critical hit it doesn't take extra damage because undead ignore bodily functions being animated by the Negative Plane (or Positive for Ancient Dead as stated in VRGttAD). If the result is anything else except something that breaks/crushes/shatters a bone or severs a member it is ignored (and used only for cosmetic purposes).

Piercing weapons can't make a critical hit on undead (used only for "cosmetic" purpose) with the only exception being staking a vampire or any other unique undead with a similar vulnerability or if the piercing weapon is massive like a ballista.

Successful critical hits using a bludgeoning weapon can break,/crush/shatter bones disabling or disturbing movement and attacks (similar to 1/2 or 1/3 movement if a leg/foot is broken/smashed and -2 or -4 on attack rolls or no attacks with that member arm/hand/tail) unless the undead has regenerative powers or is not a low HD undead in general (a 3rd rank mummy in my mind is still impervious by these attacks unless if it has a specific vulnerability).

Severing a bodily member is permanent, disabling or disturbing movement unless the undead has regenerating or rejuvenating powers in which case the dismembered part dissolves into mist/ash when severed or decomposes to nothingness at the same rate as regeneration/rejuvenation work when it hits the ground only to reappear on the undead (the only exception being the head for vampires, which instantly destroys them or turns them to mist form and they have to find a coffin to regenerate or be destroyed, depending on the distinctiveness of the vampire. This can apply to any other undead with a similar vulnerability). A lich that had an arm smashed to pieces can still take the hand of any skeleton and attach it to itself,thus still being able to cast spells with somatic components.

Any multiplication of damage does not apply on undead as I mentioned before, even if the table mentions it, only bodily movement/attack are affected and only for low level undead.

Staking a Vampire

In 2nd edition Van Richten's Guide to Vampires the rules for staking a vampire where

A single attacker using the stake like a melee weapon must have a minimum str of 17; otherwise the blow will not be strong enough to penetrate the heart. To strike the heart, the attacker must roll a successful hit against AC-1. If either condition is not met, the stake does not penetrate the heart, and does no damage to the vampire. Two people, but no more, can cooperate in wielding the stake in melee. The sum of their Str scores must exceed 17, and they make an attack at -3 to hit because of the difficulty involved coordinating their movements. If the monster is totally immobilised no to-hit is required. Staking the vampire takes 1 round.

Now staking a vampire should be difficult as a vampire will do anything in it's power to avoid a stake to the heart. In VRGtV it states that vampires are vulnerable to wooden stakes (although variants of that still exist like specific wood, stalagmite, adamantine, bone etc) if we take this in account imagine a vampire hunter holding a wooden stake against a vampire with a breast plate, unless the PC is using a ballista I would say that would be near impossible. Then the cooperation of 2 PCs holding a stake to destroy a vampire because they don't individually have Str 17 as stated in VRGtV is the least awkward, so no it doesn't work for me. The Str limit should be more approachable and since Van Richten D&D's greatest vampire hunter has a Str of 11, I would say that a character with an average Strength score (10-11) and up, qualifies to try to stake a vampire in combat.
Since staking a vampire needs a critical hit the chances for success are already low in my system, the PC has to make a natural 20 then roll a die for body part and only when the result is chest does the vampire roll a fortitude save, if it fails the roll the vampire is incapacitated and a severance of it's head destroys it, in some cases it may be instantly destroyed as in some movies/TV series depending again on the specifics of the vampires vulnerability. Naturally a normal stake can only be used to incapacitate the vampire with a hit on the heart if the chest is unprotected, meaning if the vampire is wearing armor, then only a character with greater strength than average can bypass the armor, so here the 17+ Strength of 2nd edition could apply. Any hit with a wooden stake on any other body part except the heart does no damage only superficial or cosmetic, like a vampire being staked on the eye (then the vampire retrieves the stake and stabs the vampire hunter's heart while the vampire's eye regenerates in an instant).

Staking a vampire using a called shot

A called shot to the heart represents an attempt at a killing blow, I would allow a character staking a vampire using a called shot with a -10 penalty, If the hit is successful but is not a critical hit or a debilitating blow, I would allow a second roll for a natural 20. If the roll fails then it is just a normal hit probably doing no damage at all, if the second roll is successful (20) then the vampire rolls a fortitude save, failing that the vampire is staked.

So in general a called shot with a natural 20 becomes a normal critical hit while a successful hit with a called shot gives the PC a chance to re-roll hoping to a natural 20. A failed fortitude save by the vampire is required in both cases.

Using a crossbow to stake a vampire with a called shot can bypass all these rules only if the vampire is surprised, as the attacker has time to aim and the vampire would be more vulnerable since in another situation it would do whatever it could to protect it's heart from a propelled stake. But even in this case a successful fortitude save by the vampire can make the attack unsuccessful.

So while the chances to stake a vampire in combat are still low it can still happen, keeping the vampire a formidable enemy but also the stories of famous vampire hunters possible and making "vampire wars" or "underworld werewolf vs. vampire wars" possible as well.

Staking a vampire in it's coffin

If a vampire is awakened during it's resting (usually daylight hours) the "dozing" vampire is then considered stunned and unable to take action for 1 round. Thereafter, it can't shapechange or voluntarily assume gaseous form for an additional 1d4 rounds, although it can cast any spells it has previously memorized, use it's gazing power's or spider climb to escape. If the vampire was in it's coffin because it had previously turned to mist involuntarily after being defeated in battle, most chances are that it is stunned inside its coffin until it rests enough (usually 8 hours) though this is not always the case this is the most usual way vampires are staked.

What do you think about these, what are the rules you are using?

[Wolfglide of the Fraternity]

I have had little occasion to deal with attacks to specific body parts, but in theory, I might employ some combination of size category rules and cover.

Most humanoid body parts by themselves are probably of Diminutive size, which would entail a +4 bonus to AC. For external appendages, one might stop there. I suppose limbs that frequently move around faster than the body of the creature could get some additional bonus.
Internal appendages should probably be given some degree of cover (another +4 to AC), or perhaps improved cover (+8). They can't have total cover, otherwise they couldn't be attacked by the rules as written. In addition, depending on how sturdy the rest of the body is, an additional natural armor bonus could be added. This would represent the difficulty of getting through all of the flesh and bone in the way. Adding concealment for being unable to see organs might also be a good idea.

Using these thoughts above, trying to disorient Strahd by conking him on the head would require hitting AC 36 (from the base AC 32 given in Gaz I), while attempting to kill him outright with a wooden stake would require hitting AC 40. Trying to cold-cock the shadow dragon Ebb in the same manner would require hitting at least AC 38 (base 36 + 2 for moving from Huge to Medium; assuming that is the size of her head), while spearing her through the heart would require hitting at least AC 42 (for a Medium heart with cover), or maybe AC 47 (for a Small heart with improved cover).

I don't know how balanced this all is, but it is a starting place.

[Mephisto of the FoS]

I forgot n additional penalty on a crossbow because of Range and Reach:
Called shots work best at close range. Melee called shots are at a –2 penalty if the target isn’t adjacent to its attacker. For called shots made at range, all range penalties due to range increment are doubled, with a minimum penalty of –2 for any called shot against a target that’s not within 30 feet.

I have had little occasion to deal with attacks to specific body parts, but in theory, I might employ some combination of size category rules and cover. Most humanoid body parts by themselves are probably of Diminutive size, which would entail a +4 bonus to AC. For external appendages, one might stop there. I suppose limbs that frequently move around faster than the body of the creature could get some additional bonus.

There are already rules for called shots +4 on AC for a vital organ like the heart is to small. Also cover in game terms means hiding behind a bush/wall/wagon/kobolt.
Armor is not considered cover in game terms since it is already there in the character's AC.

Internal appendages should probably be given some degree of cover (another +4 to AC), or perhaps improved cover (+8). They can't have total cover, otherwise they couldn't be attacked by the rules as written. In addition, depending on how sturdy the rest of the body is, an additional natural armor bonus could be added. This would represent the difficulty of getting through all of the flesh and bone in the way. Adding concealment for being unable to see organs might also be a good idea

Isn't natural armor bonus already calculated in the one being attacked in AC? And you don't have to see a humanoids heart just to know where it is, does that mean that a vampire having transparent skin would be easier to hit? No I don't believe it would.

Using these thoughts above, trying to disorient Strahd by conking him on the head would require hitting AC 36 (from the base AC 32 given in Gaz I), while attempting to kill him outright with a wooden stake would require hitting AC 40. Trying to cold-cock the shadow dragon Ebb in the same manner would require hitting at least AC 38 (base 36 + 2 for moving from Huge to Medium; assuming that is the size of her head), while spearing her through the heart would require hitting at least AC 42 (for a Medium heart with cover), or maybe AC 47 (for a Small heart with improved cover).

Strahd is undead not human he can't be disoriented by a knock on the head (it's the rule about undead not being susceptible to critical hits) the only way would be to have some member's of the party holding him by both arms while another member tries to stake him and even if grabbed in that way he can still bite, turn into a wolf/bat/mist.

I don't know how balanced this all is, but it is a starting place.

there are already rules for called shots...

https://www.d20pfsrd.com/gamemastering/ ... luntarily.

naturally if the called shot is a natural 20 or 19 (depending on the weapon, size etc.) then it becomes a critical hit. Now if you have an opponent as powerful as Strahd or even a common vampire then just succeeding in hitting him wouldn't be enough to stake him, that's why there is the fortitude save. Or else every party challenging him holding wooden stakes would beat him outright or even any lucky peasant challenging him could throw a natural 20 and liberate Barovia, vampires should be more difficult to be permanently destroyed.

[Mistmaster]

I use Pathfinder's rule of aiming a part; for the Heart it's a +12 to the opponent Armor Class.

[Wolfglide of the Fraternity]

I have had little occasion to deal with attacks to specific body parts, but in theory, I might employ some combination of size category rules and cover. Most humanoid body parts by themselves are probably of Diminutive size, which would entail a +4 bonus to AC. For external appendages, one might stop there. I suppose limbs that frequently move around faster than the body of the creature could get some additional bonus.

There are already rules for called shots +4 on AC for a vital organ like the heart is to small. Also cover in game terms means hiding behind a bush/wall/wagon/kobolt.
Armor is not considered cover in game terms since it is already there in the character's AC.

A vital organ is hidden behind flesh and bone, so I would consider it having some additional cover beyond just being small.

Internal appendages should probably be given some degree of cover (another +4 to AC), or perhaps improved cover (+8). They can't have total cover, otherwise they couldn't be attacked by the rules as written. In addition, depending on how sturdy the rest of the body is, an additional natural armor bonus could be added. This would represent the difficulty of getting through all of the flesh and bone in the way. Adding concealment for being unable to see organs might also be a good idea

Isn't natural armor bonus already calculated in the one being attacked in AC? And you don't have to see a humanoids heart just to know where it is, does that mean that a vampire having transparent skin would be easier to hit? No I don't believe it would.

I am saying an additional bonus to natural armor on top of whatever base natural armor bonus is already there. After all, getting through the dragon's scales is one thing, but getting through the dragon's pectoral muscles and sternum is a bit more.

I also think pinpointing the heart for a strike is potentially a bit more involved than just having a basic idea of where hearts are. Even if the variance between idea and actuality is not very large for the heart, it would be for more obscure organs. If a character wanted to stab someone in the spleen for some reason, a Heal check to know where that is seems in order. I just Googled it and realized I was a bit off in my guess.

Using these thoughts above, trying to disorient Strahd by conking him on the head would require hitting AC 36 (from the base AC 32 given in Gaz I), while attempting to kill him outright with a wooden stake would require hitting AC 40. Trying to cold-cock the shadow dragon Ebb in the same manner would require hitting at least AC 38 (base 36 + 2 for moving from Huge to Medium; assuming that is the size of her head), while spearing her through the heart would require hitting at least AC 42 (for a Medium heart with cover), or maybe AC 47 (for a Small heart with improved cover).

Strahd is undead not human he can't be disoriented by a knock on the head (it's the rule about undead not being susceptible to critical hits) the only way would be to have some member's of the party holding him by both arms while another member tries to stake him and even if grabbed in that way he can still bite, turn into a wolf/bat/mist.

Okay, maybe that wasn't the best example. I just wanted a comparison between external parts and internal parts. However, I suspect a hit to the head could still be a little flustering to an intelligent undead creature. No one likes having things fly in one's face.

In a similar vein, had I instead specified a hit to the eyes (a much harder feat, given their size), I should think that immunity to critical hits doesn't prevent him from being blinded until he regenerates them.

I don't know how balanced this all is, but it is a starting place.

there are already rules for called shots...

https://www.d20pfsrd.com/gamemastering/ ... luntarily.

naturally if the called shot is a natural 20 or 19 (depending on the weapon, size etc.) then it becomes a critical hit. Now if you have an opponent as powerful as Strahd or even a common vampire then just succeeding in hitting him wouldn't be enough to stake him, that's why there is the fortitude save. Or else every party challenging him holding wooden stakes would beat him outright or even any lucky peasant challenging him could throw a natural 20 and liberate Barovia, vampires should be more difficult to be permanently destroyed.

In 3.5, there are no official called shot rules I am aware of. Integrating the Pathfinder rules wouldn't be a bad idea, as they probably have better balance considerations behind them. I was just working within the system to the best of my ability.

[Mephisto of the FoS]

In a similar vein, had I instead specified a hit to the eyes (a much harder feat, given their size), I should think that immunity to critical hits doesn't prevent him from being blinded until he regenerates them.

Well if it is from holy water a vampire could be blinded even beyond regeneration and maybe needing to rest in a coffin.

[Mephisto of the FoS]

A vital organ is hidden behind flesh and bone, so I would consider it having some additional cover beyond just being small.

I also think pinpointing the heart for a strike is potentially a bit more involved than just having a basic idea of where hearts are.

That's why someone would need a natural 20 (a critical hit even if undead are supposed to be immune) to stake a vampire.

[Gautsu]

I know Pathfinder isn't exactly 3.0/3.5 but like others have said they havd call shot rules.
Pathfinder also made undead subject to crits, still immune to everything else. Probably because they also let undead treat Cha as Con (+ to hp and fort saves)