Killing Darklords

[Rucht Lilavivat]

Hey guys!

I'm back for October.

I have been wanting to bring this up for months, but I thought I would wait until October rolled around. In my past two Ravenloft campaigns, I have come to some new conclusions. I threw out many of the old tropes from Ravenloft, where the DM and the players had a sort of adversarial relationship, and ran Ravenloft with some sort of "new" sensibilities.

First and foremost, I ran Ravenloft with a lot more player empowerment. Let me explain. In the past, Ravenloft had gained a great deal of infamy as the campaign where the players were "powerless". They could do little to affect the outcome of the adventure and they certainly couldn't even think about taking on a Darklord unless they were truly loaded for bear.

But then as I went over all of the material, I started stretching my head. Why can't a party of 10th level characters take on Harkon Lukas if they wanted? Or Ivana Bortisi? Some of the more low-powered Darklords?

So...I let me players do just that.

It started with a fantastic solo campaign where the PC was playing vampire, because...they were a solo PC. They needed to be a little bit more powerful to even survive a single session. Eventually, they took on the Darklord of Dementlieu, and after looking at the rules collaboratively, the player and I both agreed that the Darklord's main form of attack didn't work on the vampire, who was undead.

And, actually, it worked out great! Because the Darklord, in the end was faced with a really tragically ironic opponent whom they could not affect. It was the Darklord's worst nightmare come to pass! And after the Darklord was vanquished, a new Darklord was chosen, so the campaign didn't end or break up. It was, again, great, because we now had this new antagonist that had to try to figure out what was happening to them; figure out their new powers; and come to understand their curse.

The campaign ended when the Dark Powers started tempting the PC to become the next Darklord and the PC had to resist their siren call - ending the campaign with Dementlieu emerging from the Mists, released by the Dark Powers and dumped back in it's former place in some far-off realm. The Dark Powers were bored with it and they were done.

After that, I was amazed at how much better the game was by simply empowering the PC to make smart decisions and fight the Darklord head-on if it called for it.

Since then, I've run another campaign where the party (multiple PCs now) have fought a number of Darklords because their actions and the Darklord's actions have called for it. And it worked out wonderfully. There have been great story arcs in Falkovnia, L'île de la Tempête, and Sithicus. In both Falkovnia and L'île de la Tempête, the party fought the Darklords and won, and they made for great stories.

What is y'all's thoughts on this? Killing Darklords if the story calls for it - and not necessarily at the end of a campaign?

[LeMaxul]

It's not that killing Darklords is bad per ce, it just goes against the typical horror narrative that is Ravenloft tradition, so some people don't like it. But I don't really think it's bad either; I'm more inclined to break Ravenloft taboos as the story/levels go on, and shift/combine the campaign into a mixture of Dark Fantasy and Epic Horror.

So, if you like what you do, and your players like it too, you should probably keep doing it!

[Speedwagon]

For me personally, I think it depends on not only the Darklords themselves but also on how deeply I've thought of the ramifications of their absence (both themselves and their domain) in the setting, should it come to pass.

I'm similar to you, Rucht, in how you've approached Ravenloft so far---mostly due to my PCs coming from 5e or wanting something that isn't 100% adversarial, as well as me not being a fan of that approach to begin with. There have been a few times where my PCs, in one campaign or another, have encountered a Darklord. How those encounters end is dependent upon a lot of factors, but usually it's either a bargain of some sort or some very tense diplomacy being conducted. Other times, it's necessary to flee. The "win condition" isn't always "kill the Darklord" but instead "grab this MacGuffin and get away from the Darklord" or "survive and escape" or "learn this information from the Darklord".

In one of my campaigns, Azalin Rex is the BBEG and has tricked the party into being his unwilling slaves, by tricking them into wearing the same bracers that S from the Gazetteers had. So whenever they die, they get brought back just like S and are forced to do tasks for him. I made this clear when Malken dismembered the party in a fight in Nova Vaasa, and then they came back after they all (understandably) assumed the campaign was over and they were TPKed. Of course, I made it very clear that they couldn't always abuse their newfound immortality, even with the bondage they got alongside it----if they die too many times, they won't be back as themselves (much like how a VHS tape, when re-recorded over and over again, gets corrupted into an unplayable mess, but in this case the VHS tape is their souls).

When I run my campaigns, I like to organize Darklords and their domains into categories of "essential", to "disposable", with lots of wiggle room and nuance in-between. For a place like Dementlieu--which I love-- I would want it to stick around. So even if Dominic is a Darklord that I find "mid" and can be rid of, I'd want him to be replaced by someone else so Dementlieu stays and then changes according to the new Darklord's personality. Thankfully, there's lots of contenders for Darklordship---The Brain, Saidra D'Honaire, Celeste Loverde-D'Honaire, Hélène de Suis, Adramalech from the VRS Files: Doppelgangers netbook, and more. But then there are domains like Île de la Tempête, where I'm appreciative of their basic concept but don't mind if they disappear. So if I use Alain Monette, I plan to have my PCs kill him off and for his domain to disappear as well. I'm not worried about him sticking around. Same for Tristen ApBlanc and Forlorn, though I can also justify Forlorn being annexed by Barovia or Hazlan if I want to keep the physical space around and not Tristen.

Otherwise, I have a few Darklords that I am protective of. The Dark Twins of Borca are some of my favorite Darklords in the entire setting and I love Borca, so I'm very particular of how I want to see them thwarted and don't want to necessarily rush any of their downfalls or have it happen unceremoniously. However, I don't want them to always win and never face consequences---it demoralizes PCs. So I give PCs small wins that can add up into big victories, with any long-term game surrounding the Dark Twins being one in which their powerbase is gradually dismantled or defanged---taking out important ermordenüngs or important Borrowed Men, before moving up to the likes of Nostalia Romaine, and then ivana & Ivan. And even if they are killed for good, I want Borca to stick around, so Strahd can take it or Drakov can or someone else can. Unless I categorize the domain as an "adventure domain" where only certain types of adventures can be held and then think of it as "disposable", I'm usually very loathe to have it dissolve into the Mists. Even for domains like Vorostokov and G'Henna, featured in modules like Dark of the Moon and Circle of Darkness, are intriguing enough to me that I wouldn't want the endings of those modules to be "kill the Darklord and the land disappears with them, as all those people your players met were all just soulless NPCs with no meaningful consequences for their actions and can therefore be ignored". Part of the fun, for me at least, is taking a setting like Ravenloft---an artifical construct that makes itself known as such to the DM from the get-go---and making it feel lived-in and real.

So I guess those are my thoughts on your question. I'm totally fine with killing off Darklords if it means it'll be a great story. I usually don't have the Darklords be the main focus, as there's so many non-Darklord antagonists (Louise Renier, the High Master, the Brain, Prince Loht, Emil Bollenbach, Natalia Vhorishkova, the Gentleman Caller, Malocchio Aderre, Jacqueline Montarri, Drigor, etc) that can be thrown at PCs that I don't need to do a "boss rush--Darklord version". But when I do feel like I can give them a fight against a Darklord and let them have it, I'm all for it---I ran a modified version of "Neither Man nor Beast" and the PCs were happy to help Akanga throw down against Dr. Markov. Akanga ended up the Darklord of Markovia, with his curse being that the rest of the Broken Ones on the island, except himself, would forcibly go back to their original forms (most of the time with fatal consequences). So he would end up as the last Broken One, "neither man nor beast", and his island would also be opened up to colonization from Dementlieuse and Lamordian peoples who would tame/domesticate and exploit the very jungles and savage lands he called home.

[Mistmaster]

In my campaign Darklords and Lightlords may change.

[alhoon]

Rucht, everything that works for your game is the correct decision for your game.

That said, a party of 10th level chars can take HLukas... but then the question becomes "why no 10th level char has killed him yet?" And this is what I think. I would absolutely allow my PCs to kill some of the killlable Darklords if they got them in their sights and so, Dominic for example hides.
HL though... I like that he resurrects in the nearest wolf and also, IIRC HL doesn't draw too much attention.
Strahd... aside of being hard to kill there's the issue that truth be told "an evil lord in a castle" is not that bad, all things considered.

[Joël of the FoS]

Good to see you around!

I believe darklords are prepared for many contingencies. They are the general, not the foot soldier. Darklords don't fight a bunch of high level PCs openly without pre-planned resources.

That said, they have defaults in their personality. IMC, Ivana Boritsi has had one of the PCs as boyfriend, and now she send them through various missions or temporary protection demands. She believes they are her friendly toys, and she is overconfident on a few things - the things she tells them (her evilish actions), or the times when they are alone with her. In the meantime, being in her entourage, the players see her doing evil things, and they know she probably did arrange for the killing of an innocent NPC family they saved from Falkovnians. I think it's a question of time before they try to assassinate Ivana Ivana probably won't see that coming, as she is getting more and more comfortable with the PCs and through their actions, she sees them perhaps as level 2 friends (level 1 being her close friends - Nostalia and a few others).

If it happens, so be it

They'll find Ivan as being more a pain in the butt then Ivana was.

Some Darklords are not smart enough to pull the strings, not manipulative enough to really be a background menace, and the best they can do is run around beating people up Those can be killed. IMC, they killed two minor darklords, Nathan Timothy and Evensong.

But now in the campaign, they are 8-9th level, so this can happen.

They will soon meet Ivan and Strahd, over an hostage exchange: Ivan has Tara Kolyana (aka Tatyana) prisonner, and will force the PCs to negotiate an exchange against Leo Dilisnya! Things could go bad for Ivan!

[The Dark]

Assuming the domain isn't planned to vanish into the Mists after the adventure, I think I would consider a few factors when deciding how much "plot armor" a Darklord has.

1. How central is the domain to Ravenloft? Taking out a Core Darklord is going to affect things more than a Cluster or Pocket domain's Darklord. Lemot Juste simply doesn't affect the setting as much as Azalin.

2. How intrinsic is the Darklord to their domain? Easan the Mad basically is Vechor, while Urik von Kharkov isn't really that central to Valachan.

3. How easily replaced is the Darklord? There are a number of Reniers in the wings if Jacqueline goes down, or other evil fey if the Three Hags fall. It's a little harder to replace Tiyet or Tsien Chiang in their domains.

All of these will vary a bit by which version of the setting is being used, but in general I feel like no Darklord is completely invincible, but just how hard they are to knock off should vary based on those factors. Using Ivana/Borca as an example, it's pretty central (having Borca vanish would shake things up a lot), but while Ivana's both the leader of the domain and its Darklord, she's very easily replaced by Ivan or an alternate candidate like the emordenungs Nostalia Romaine or Elenia Windalla. Eliminating her should be fine since there are multiple good candidates for her replacement.

[Solan]

2. Really? I consider Von Khakhov absolutely essential to Valachan! He's one of my favorite Dark Lords, not the least because he's not only quite intelligent, but prudent and cautious, traits incredibly rare among villains!

Maybe not, but Tsien Chiang is about as close to completely invincible as a Dark Lord can get . . .

[Solan]

It started with a fantastic solo campaign where the PC was playing vampire, because...they were a solo PC. They needed to be a little bit more powerful to even survive a single session. Eventually, they took on the Darklord of Dementlieu, and after looking at the rules collaboratively, the player and I both agreed that the Darklord's main form of attack didn't work on the vampire, who was undead.

The old 2nd Edition Ravenloft Gazzeteer "Obedient" entry gave us an outline of Dominic's NPC bodyguard adventurers; did you not use them?

[TheArcaneWeirdo]

I think Saidra specifically was kinda set up for this. It's not like VRGtR named any character in the domain other than her and the hags, and they did gave us a built-in way to defeat her (expose her as a commoner).

[Rucht Lilavivat]

It started with a fantastic solo campaign where the PC was playing vampire, because...they were a solo PC. They needed to be a little bit more powerful to even survive a single session. Eventually, they took on the Darklord of Dementlieu, and after looking at the rules collaboratively, the player and I both agreed that the Darklord's main form of attack didn't work on the vampire, who was undead.

The old 2nd Edition Ravenloft Gazzeteer "Obedient" entry gave us an outline of Dominic's NPC bodyguard adventurers; did you not use them?

Of course! But when it came to the final fight - the dramatic end...the Darklord of Dementlieu's attacks were ineffectual against a vampire. But that actually ended up being a very cool and dramatically ironic part of the story. It was extremely fitting and worked out quite well.

[Gonzoron of the FoS]

The way I see it, the whole "PC's can't kill darklords" thing is more like "PC's can't kill darklords.... except you guys because you're the heroes and managed the impossible." It's PR, to make it all the more special when it does happen. Still should be rare, and have repercussions, and should not be easy. But it's happened, even in canon (Daglan and Gundar for examble, or Bakholis and Claude Renier if you stretch from PCs to NPCs). But it's one of many "can't"s in the setting that really mean, "can't unless a good plot calls for it." No one can escape Ravenloft, except for Vecna. No one can navigate the Mists, except for the Vistani, and anchorites, and people who find a Mistway, etc. So yeah, if it's the culmination of a campaign, or even a long adventure, go ahead and let your PCs be the special ones who did the impossible. That's what D&D is all about, really. (And like Gundar, (or Dracula, or Jason Voorhees, etc.) they can always come back for the sequel if needed.

[DarkDruid]

As has been pointed out already: Do what makes sense and is fun for you and fellow players.

One of the greatest hopes I harbor is to play or GM a Ravenloft campaign that players return to later on a new campaign and deal with the domain as it now is after their victory. My first campaign in Barovia ended with my character taking over as the Abbess at Krezk and the Abbot being foreshadowed as replacing Strahd as Darklord of the domain. It would be absolutely amazing for me to experience seeing her again as she matures into the position and her faith, waging holy war against a fallen angel to protect the people of Barovia. Or even to see it far enough into the future that it’s a successor of hers.