Checks.

[TheArcaneWeirdo]

Can I get an explanation on the mechanics of Fear Checks, Horror Checks, Madness Checks etc? I see those mentioned all the time and they seem like a big part of what differentiates Ravenloft from normal DND, but they aren't explained anywere I could find.

[Strahdsbuddy]

In the main 2nd and 3rd edition campaign setting books, these checks are essentially saving throws. They do slightly minimize the concepts they're trying to emulate by making them mechanical in nature, but especially in the early edition it was important to show player that Ravenloft wasn't a normal d&d setting. Players accustomed to Monty Haul or Munchkin gaming might have struggled to play horror due to their detachment from the consequences in those style games. Ravenloft rules made the player stop and react with fear, and if they didn't the DM had this rule to remind them what they saw might actually be too frightening for the character to just draw their sword and roll initiative.

In practice, almost every DM I've observed waived these checks if the players made an effort to play fearful reactions to things like armies of undead or their grandmother turning into a werewolf before their eyes. Early criticism I heard of the setting back in the 90s was that the players were penalized for playing their characters, but I think this evolved into a shared agreement the the DM was actively trying to create situations the characters would have a reaction to. And the players had a chance to be more than just the unflappable knights of Greyhawk, allowing for more flawed heroes.

[Wolfglide of the Fraternity]

In 3rd edition, all three of the saves were based on the Will save, so they used the base Will save bonus and the Wisdom modifier, but they weren't modified by feats and spells that affected Will saves.

Each one operates on a graded scale of failure. Failing one of these checks by up to 5 points meant getting a minor effect, failing by 6-10 points gave you a moderate effect, and failing by 11-15 points (or more) gave you a major effect.
For Fear, the effects were just the standard gradations of fear effects from the core rules: shaken, then frightened, then panicked. Failing by 16 or more meant also making a Horror save.
For Horror, there were four different possible effects for each level that had to be randomly chosen. For example, on a moderate failure, a character might be stricken with nightmares about the horrific scene that triggered the check. Horror was longer term than Fear (anywhere from a week to a month, instead of just a number of rounds), and was triggered by scenes that were more than just scary, but would shake a person to their core. Failing by 16 or more meant also making a Madness save.
Madness was formatted similar to Horror, with four possible effects at each level of severity. Also, the character takes damage to each of their mental ability scores, and can only recover once all of the damage is healed. For minor effects, this occurred over the course of hours, but for moderate or major effects, it would take months and months of rest (perhaps with institutionalization) per point of ability score damage, or weeks with therapy from a hypnotist. The damage was also greater for higher levels of madness, and failing by 16 or more meant that the character went into system shock and might die, dropping instantly to -1 hit points. Madness saves were to be used when experiencing truly mind-shaking events, including mental contact with an alien intelligence (or an insane mind), or being gaslit.

That is the general mechanical overview. The full rules I'm looking at are in the Ravenloft Campaign Setting, or in the Ravenloft Player's Handbook. I'm looking primarily at the latter resource, but I think they're largely the same. The Player's Handbook has an additional sidebar that discusses high Wisdom making Madness saves harder, but it directly contradicts the rules as expressed in the rest of the section, so I don't think it was integrated properly.

[TheArcaneWeirdo]

In 3rd edition, all three of the saves were based on the Will save, so they used the base Will save bonus and the Wisdom modifier, but they weren't modified by feats and spells that affected Will saves.

Each one operates on a graded scale of failure. Failing one of these checks by up to 5 points meant getting a minor effect, failing by 6-10 points gave you a moderate effect, and failing by 11-15 points (or more) gave you a major effect.
For Fear, the effects were just the standard gradations of fear effects from the core rules: shaken, then frightened, then panicked. Failing by 16 or more meant also making a Horror save.
For Horror, there were four different possible effects for each level that had to be randomly chosen. For example, on a moderate failure, a character might be stricken with nightmares about the horrific scene that triggered the check. Horror was longer term than Fear (anywhere from a week to a month, instead of just a number of rounds), and was triggered by scenes that were more than just scary, but would shake a person to their core. Failing by 16 or more meant also making a Madness save.
Madness was formatted similar to Horror, with four possible effects at each level of severity. Also, the character takes damage to each of their mental ability scores, and can only recover once all of the damage is healed. For minor effects, this occurred over the course of hours, but for moderate or major effects, it would take months and months of rest (perhaps with institutionalization) per point of ability score damage, or weeks with therapy from a hypnotist. The damage was also greater for higher levels of madness, and failing by 16 or more meant that the character went into system shock and might die, dropping instantly to -1 hit points. Madness saves were to be used when experiencing truly mind-shaking events, including mental contact with an alien intelligence (or an insane mind), or being gaslit.

That is the general mechanical overview. The full rules I'm looking at are in the Ravenloft Campaign Setting, or in the Ravenloft Player's Handbook. I'm looking primarily at the latter resource, but I think they're largely the same. The Player's Handbook has an additional sidebar that discusses high Wisdom making Madness saves harder, but it directly contradicts the rules as expressed in the rest of the section, so I don't think it was integrated properly.

Thank you very much! I finally get it! do you know know where I can get the Ravenloft Campaign Setting?
And how do you think this could be adjusted to 5e?

[TheArcaneWeirdo]

In the main 2nd and 3rd edition campaign setting books, these checks are essentially saving throws. They do slightly minimize the concepts they're trying to emulate by making them mechanical in nature, but especially in the early edition it was important to show player that Ravenloft wasn't a normal d&d setting. Players accustomed to Monty Haul or Munchkin gaming might have struggled to play horror due to their detachment from the consequences in those style games. Ravenloft rules made the player stop and react with fear, and if they didn't the DM had this rule to remind them what they saw might actually be too frightening for the character to just draw their sword and roll initiative.

In practice, almost every DM I've observed waived these checks if the players made an effort to play fearful reactions to things like armies of undead or their grandmother turning into a werewolf before their eyes. Early criticism I heard of the setting back in the 90s was that the players were penalized for playing their characters, but I think this evolved into a shared agreement the the DM was actively trying to create situations the characters would have a reaction to. And the players had a chance to be more than just the unflappable knights of Greyhawk, allowing for more flawed heroes.

Thanks for the context.
I'm planning on DMing my first Ravenloft campaign soon with a few friends, and neither of us is really familiar with the horror genre yet. Do you reccomend using those throws until we get the hang of it?

[Strahdsbuddy]

RL campaign setting (3e) is tougher to come by the domains of Dread 2e should be in DMsGuild.

I'd start with the checks in place, especially in a "session zero" setting to establish context around what you're trying to do and also hearing from your players on the limits they may feel. Everyone is supposed to be enjoying the game, not just the DM

[Joël of the FoS]

Other point of view: I play with a bunch of old grognards that have seen many things during 40 years of D&D and they would not be inclined to roleplay fear without prompts. Each time we discussed this, they agreed at first to do it, then quickly forgot it to play their caracters as heroic. If they get the heebee jeebies, it's because they fear for their PCs. Which is fun too when I achieve this (brain eating zombies).

So I use fear & horror checks as a reminder that in RL, everybody can have a shock from something and run away in fear.

This way of the RL world is well explained to the players, and they accept and even like it.

As the PCs are now 8-9th level, I do not overdo these checks either, only when they meet an horrible scene, or have reasons to fear (ex: beeing greatly outnumbered by capable foes).

And I'd say I ask for much more horror checks (90 % of all checks ?) than fear checks (10 % ?)

[Wolfglide of the Fraternity]

Thank you very much! I finally get it! do you know know where I can get the Ravenloft Campaign Setting?
And how do you think this could be adjusted to 5e?

You're welcome! Very few of the old 3/3.5e Ravenloft books are available on DMsGuild, but the Campaign Setting and PHB are among them. I think this link should give the right search results:
https://www.dmsguild.com/en/browse?sett ... c=fid45348

I don't know exactly how to adjust these to 5e, since the design philosophy is a little different with regard to the range of values a DC should take. I have only ever been a player in 5e, so I don't have a lot of experience translating rules between the versions. The basic mechanics might be usable with minor adjustments to numerical ranges, though ability damage is not natively part of 5e.

[TheArcaneWeirdo]

Two more questions:
1) When roleplaying a failed madness check, should it be played for horror, comedy or realism?
Cause on the one hand, the purpose of these mechanics is to facilitate horror in the game - but on the other hand, the usual horror tropes involving mental illnesses tend to be demonising and it's very harmful.
In a novel, I'd try my best to research this sort of things and represent it as accurately and sensitively as possible. But in an RPG, where it happens randomly around the table and we all have to improvise, I'm afraid we'll automatically resort to making one big joke out of it - and honestly, maybe that's what some of the players would want. But I also know at least two of my players have mental issues IRL... So, how do I let folks roleplay their 'mad' character in a fun way AND make sure no one in the party is offended? Should I try to make it realistic and break stereotypes like I would in a novel, or on the contrary, keep it at joke level to clarify this isn't meant to imply anything about real-life conditions?

2) When a character needs to recover from a moderate or severe madness effect, how much 'screentime' is usually given for therapy? Do you just roll the dice, pay, and assume it happened between adventures, or make a roleplay scenario out of it? Cause I think there's a lot of storytelling potential there (from 'normal psychologist - sorry, 'alienist' - having to deal with the party's shenanigans' to 'the asylium is secretly the base of operations for the Ulmist Inquisition'), but is it worth the time that could be spent on, like, the actual campaign? How do you usually go about it?

[The Dark]

I think the advice on dealing with Madness Checks from the Red Box applies here:

"Note that these forms of "insanity" are not in any way intended to reflect exact medical definitions. They are designed strictly to provide interesting opportunities in role-playing."

What will be interesting will vary by table.

Dealing with Madness is one area where I feel like the character tree concept from Dark Sun would help in Ravenloft. It's hard to make an interesting session for a group of players that centers on getting therapy for one character. Not impossible, but difficult. It's also time-consuming, since (under the Red Box rules) you get two chances a week to fail a saving throw, and need to fail a number equal to your Intelligence to recover. Someone with Int 12 is out of action for at least six weeks, and probably longer because they'll succeed on at least a few saves. It would be much easier logistically to have most of that happen off-screen and have the player run a different character for a few sessions. That might shift if multiple characters are all suffering from madness, since then it becomes more of a group thing.

For check difficulty, 3e uses the standard DC modifiers for creature-induced checks - 10 + 1/2 creature's Hit Dice + creature's applicable stat modifier (Wisdom for Madness). For 5e, the equivalent default is a DC of 8 + the creature's proficiency modifier + the creature's stat modifier. For Fear, Charisma is the applicable creature stat, while Madness uses Wisdom. Checks that aren't tied to a creature can probably use the 3e DC straight, since both systems have a 10/15/20 range for easy/medium/hard checks.

[Teravala]

In 3rd edition, all three of the saves were based on the Will save, so they used the base Will save bonus and the Wisdom modifier, but they weren't modified by feats and spells that affected Will saves.

Each one operates on a graded scale of failure. Failing one of these checks by up to 5 points meant getting a minor effect, failing by 6-10 points gave you a moderate effect, and failing by 11-15 points (or more) gave you a major effect.
For Fear, the effects were just the standard gradations of fear effects from the core rules: shaken, then frightened, then panicked. Failing by 16 or more meant also making a Horror save.
For Horror, there were four different possible effects for each level that had to be randomly chosen. For example, on a moderate failure, a character might be stricken with nightmares about the horrific scene that triggered the check. Horror was longer term than Fear (anywhere from a week to a month, instead of just a number of rounds), and was triggered by scenes that were more than just scary, but would shake a person to their core. Failing by 16 or more meant also making a Madness save.
Madness was formatted similar to Horror, with four possible effects at each level of severity. Also, the character takes damage to each of their mental ability scores, and can only recover once all of the damage is healed. For minor effects, this occurred over the course of hours, but for moderate or major effects, it would take months and months of rest (perhaps with institutionalization) per point of ability score damage, or weeks with therapy from a hypnotist. The damage was also greater for higher levels of madness, and failing by 16 or more meant that the character went into system shock and might die, dropping instantly to -1 hit points. Madness saves were to be used when experiencing truly mind-shaking events, including mental contact with an alien intelligence (or an insane mind), or being gaslit.

That is the general mechanical overview. The full rules I'm looking at are in the Ravenloft Campaign Setting, or in the Ravenloft Player's Handbook. I'm looking primarily at the latter resource, but I think they're largely the same. The Player's Handbook has an additional sidebar that discusses high Wisdom making Madness saves harder, but it directly contradicts the rules as expressed in the rest of the section, so I don't think it was integrated properly.

I've been trying to find the above described degrees of failure in the RPHB but I cant find it, do you have a possible reference for the above (and incredibly helpful!) information on degrees of failure?

[Wolfglide of the Fraternity]

I've been trying to find the above described degrees of failure in the RPHB but I cant find it, do you have a possible reference for the above (and incredibly helpful!) information on degrees of failure?

Sorry, I haven't been checking in. The Fear, Horror, and Madness section begins on page 77 of the RLPHB (page 64 of the Campaign Setting), and the basic description of the degrees of failure is on that page. Specific descriptions for the different saves come up over the course of the rest of the section.

When roleplaying a failed madness check, should it be played for horror, comedy or realism?
Cause on the one hand, the purpose of these mechanics is to facilitate horror in the game - but on the other hand, the usual horror tropes involving mental illnesses tend to be demonising and it's very harmful.
In a novel, I'd try my best to research this sort of things and represent it as accurately and sensitively as possible. But in an RPG, where it happens randomly around the table and we all have to improvise, I'm afraid we'll automatically resort to making one big joke out of it - and honestly, maybe that's what some of the players would want. But I also know at least two of my players have mental issues IRL... So, how do I let folks roleplay their 'mad' character in a fun way AND make sure no one in the party is offended? Should I try to make it realistic and break stereotypes like I would in a novel, or on the contrary, keep it at joke level to clarify this isn't meant to imply anything about real-life conditions?

This is certainly an instance where a Lines and Veils sort of discussion at the table beforehand might be a good idea, and perhaps an X-Card as a failsafe if anyone gets uncomfortable.

[alhoon]

Can I get an explanation on the mechanics of Fear Checks, Horror Checks, Madness Checks etc? I see those mentioned all the time and they seem like a big part of what differentiates Ravenloft from normal DND, but they aren't explained anywere I could find.

Ah... in very short, there were mechanics between the editions, for handling fear (seeing something scary), handling horror (seeing something traumatic AND scary) and madness (contacting alien minds etc that could drive you crazy).

A giant with two heads attacking you from the dark (i.e. an ettin?) fear check.
A giant with two heads those of your parents attacking you from the dark, whispering to you in your parents "strict" voice? Horror check.
Capturing the 2nd giant and then trying to read its mind(s)? Madness check.