Limitations of Domination

[Malus Black]

Compulsion spells are always fun. But I've come across a few problems with Dominate Person. Specifically, I wonder if the spell can modify someone's memory. As in "you will not remember me casting this spell on you" or "in fact, you spent last evening in the village tavern." I think it should work for the duration of the spell, as forgetting something should be within a person's power (although the victim might receive a new saving throw if forgetting things is against its nature, which I'd say it is).
Furthermore, the spell description says that "obviously self-destructive orders are not carried out." Unfortunately, it's not very clear on what this encompasses. Obviously, you won't jump off a cliff or slit your throat, but what about actions such as dropping your weapon in front of an enemy? Against your nature, certainly, but not necessarily self-destructive.
Any ideas?

[ScS of the Fraternity]

I think that modifying memories is beyond the scope of dominate person - since there are spells like Modify Memory that6 specifically target that function. Perhaps you could make sugegstions such as, "you will think of this as a dream".

However, I think that ordering someone to do something like dropping a weapon should be allowed. Its not suicidal, per se. The suggestion spell for example, allows you to make similiar compulsions, so it would be logical to think that dominate can also do this.

[AdamGarou]

In games with my group, these types of spells won't necessarily allow you to control someone else like a marionette (or carrionette ), but when one of us DMs we usually allow it if the spellcaster is pretty creative.

Instead of simply instructing the recipient to "drop your weapon", it's a little more involved... say, asking "why are you raising your weapon to me, Argus? Have all our years of friendship counted for nothing?" That makes the suggestion to drop the weapon more reasonable by providing a context for it.

That is, if you're accustomed to carrying a weapon--even a dagger--you aren't going to drop it if you think you're in danger, because that WOULD be considered self-destructive in your mind. On the other hand, if the person standing across from you is an old friend you've known for years, then why ARE you waving that sword at him?

It's a subtle distinction, but it keeps things from getting out of hand in our games... not to mention fun seeing what explanation the spellcaster's player is going to come up with for the suggestion he or she is giving.

[DeepShadow of FoS]

Instead of simply instructing the recipient to "drop your weapon", it's a little more involved... say, asking "why are you raising your weapon to me, Argus? Have all our years of friendship counted for nothing?" That makes the suggestion to drop the weapon more reasonable by providing a context for it.

This is appropriate for charm person, but unnecessary for domination. Domination has its own limitations; see the DMG description of a compulsion.

[Malus Black]

I think that modifying memories is beyond the scope of dominate person - since there are spells like Modify Memory that specifically target that function. Perhaps you could make sugegstions such as, "you will think of this as a dream".

That's what I was afraid of. The problem with Modify Memory is that it's quite pathetic. I mean, five minutes? What's the point of erasing five minutes of memory when the target can remember everything up to and after that point? Sure, you can change the details of those five minutes, but it's still not very useful. Half an hour, now that would be useful.

However, I think that ordering someone to do something like dropping a weapon should be allowed. Its not suicidal, per se. The suggestion spell for example, allows you to make similiar compulsions, so it would be logical to think that dominate can also do this.

That's what I figured. After all, unless you can be completely certain that you're going to be ripped to shreds the second you drop your weapon, it could hardly be considered suicidal.

Instead of simply instructing the recipient to "drop your weapon", it's a little more involved... say, asking "why are you raising your weapon to me, Argus? Have all our years of friendship counted for nothing?" That makes the suggestion to drop the weapon more reasonable by providing a context for it.

I see your point, but agree with DeepShadow that this isn't entirely fitting for Dominate Person, which, well, dominates the victim. It works for Suggestion and Charm Person, certainly, but both are far weaker than Dominate Person.

What I'm trying to do here is basically to make the the domination ability of a vampire more akin to the one shown in Pratchett's Carpe Jugulum. I know, I can just add an ability that allows memory-modification, but I'd like to stay within the rules.

[Stygian Inquirer]

I think that modifying memories is beyond the scope of dominate person - since there are spells like Modify Memory that specifically target that function. Perhaps you could make sugegstions such as, "you will think of this as a dream".

That's what I was afraid of. The problem with Modify Memory is that it's quite pathetic. I mean, five minutes? What's the point of erasing five minutes of memory when the target can remember everything up to and after that point? Sure, you can change the details of those five minutes, but it's still not very useful. Half an hour, now that would be useful.

Then again, there is the other extreme with the psionic power Psychic Chiurgery which allows you to eliminate entire sections of a persons brain and rewrite it, absorb it yourself or just about whatever else you want to do. However, this can be very devastating. Try taking away the section of the evil wizard's memory that lets him know that he can cast spells .

Maybe you could try changing Modify Memory to being able to change 5 minutes of the target's memory per caster level.

[Igor the Henchman]

What I'm trying to do here is basically to make the the domination ability of a vampire more akin to the one shown in Pratchett's Carpe Jugulum. I know, I can just add an ability that allows memory-modification, but I'd like to stay within the rules.

To add a new ability is staying within the rules. Vampires with Salient powers abound in Ravenloft, and even in other settings, there's always room for variants.

[Malus Black]

What I'm trying to do here is basically to make the the domination ability of a vampire more akin to the one shown in Pratchett's Carpe Jugulum. I know, I can just add an ability that allows memory-modification, but I'd like to stay within the rules.

To add a new ability is staying within the rules. Vampires with Salient powers abound in Ravenloft, and even in other settings, there's always room for variants.

I know, and I nearly always modify abilities until they fit my idea, but in this case I'd like to stay within the limitations of Dominate Person, just in case the PCs want to try something similar later on. But since it seems that this is not within the power of the spell, I'll just have to go the old 'salient power' route.