Shadow Fiend and philactery

[Jakob]

Hi!

Just a quick question: do EVERY shadow fiend have a phylactery, as "normal" outsiders?
I was hoping that, since they're so "attuned" to the Demiplane, they'd not need one...

What do you think about it?

[Jester of the FoS]

I think weaker fiends have less need of one than greater fiends. They're less powerful and thus less concerned with immortality and grand reaching schemes. And some of them may not be strong enough and powerful enough to remove their soul, survive the transition or stave off death.
Very old shadow fiends may create one, as might intelligent or paranoid ones. Case-by-case basis.

[Jakob]

Good point.

[Rotipher of the FoS]

Personally, I'd assume that any fiend who comes to Ravenloft gets a phylactery. Such items aren't something the fiend deliberately creates: at least according to Van Richten's Guide, the phylactery is spontaneously generated by the dark forces of the Land of Mists; it's not an item which a fiend takes steps to construct.

Beyond that, remember that "weaker fiend" doesn't really mean anything to Ravenloft characters. So far as native-born experts are aware, fiends are unique individual monsters, not members of outsider races. To an occultist from the Land of Mists, each fiend is a mystery, its powers unguessed-at; a lemure can be just as frightening and unknown as a pit fiend, at least at first glance! Plus, if you do away with phylacteries for Ravenloft's fiends, you're eliminating the one clue which adventurers from the setting have to go on, when searching for a fiend's weakness: the fact that all fiends [in their world] possess a specific item through which they are vulnerable. Deny low-powered fiends that common link, and chances are good that nobody would even recognize that the monster is a fiend, at all.

If, OTOH, you're talking about something native to Ravenloft which merely resembles a fiend -- for instance, the imp Dread Companion of a powerful evil wizard -- then a phylactery isn't needed, because the creature isn't really from the Lower Planes. This would apply to anything with the [Mists] descriptor, or any fiend-like species which originated in the Land of Mists instead of the Lower Planes, or any outsider that had the "[native]" subtype before it came to Ravenloft from elsewhere.

[Chris Nichols]

Are shadow fiends monsters of the outsider type?

Yes.

Do shadow fiends have the evil subtype?

Yes.

Do shadow fiends have the mists subtype?

No.

Are shadow fiends familiars?

No.

Therefore, per at least a dozen Ask Azalin questions and Van Richten's Arsenal, with reference to Denizens of Darkness/Dread, shadow fiends have reality wrinkles and phylacteries.

Chris Nichols

[Jester of the FoS]

But then, by the same rules, evil L20 monks could easily have phylacteries.
Something has to seperate being an outsider and a reality wrinkle from having a phylactery.
The "evil" subtype could be a requirement but I can think of one celestial that proves to be the exception.

There should probably be some manner of level, Hit Dice or Intelligence requirement or every imp and summoned demon becomes immortal.

[Drinnik Shoehorn]

But then, by the same rules, evil L20 monks could easily have phylacteries.
Something has to seperate being an outsider and a reality wrinkle from having a phylactery.
The "evik" subtype could be a requirement but I can think of one celestial that proves to be the exception.

There should probably be some manner of level, Hit Dice or Intelligence requirement or every imp and summoned demon becomes immortal.

But celestials have the "good" subtype. That's why Modrons and Slaadi don't have reality wrinkles, they're neutral. It's the fact that celestials and fiends are made from the literal forces of "good" and "evil" that cause them to have reality wrinkles.

On the subject of Ask Azalin, I think something like that should be brought back. I know it never will be, but it would be ultimately useful.

[Nathan of the FoS]

Are shadow fiends monsters of the outsider type?

Yes.

Do shadow fiends have the evil subtype?

Yes.

Do shadow fiends have the mists subtype?

No.

Are shadow fiends familiars?

No.

Therefore, per at least a dozen Ask Azalin questions and Van Richten's Arsenal, with reference to Denizens of Darkness/Dread, shadow fiends have reality wrinkles and phylacteries.

Chris Nichols

All very true; but, on the other hand, Quist (the imp from CotN: D) was explicitly NOT given a phylactery because, as "a weak and insignificant fiend,...his life force lacks the strength to continue on after his death".

But, heck. When in doubt, refer to Rule 0--"Whatever the Dungeon Master says, goes."

[Fido]

Vasaliches also have phylacteries. And they're the lame version of liches, just like weak shadow fiends are the lame version of superfiends.

Therefore, weak shadowfiends should have phylacteries.

In a way, it's kinda logical


Though I do feel that the weaker the creature, the smaller and the more vulnerable the phylactery.

[Jester of the FoS]

But vasaliches have their created by other full liches. It's pretty explicit that they're not powerful or strong enough to do it solo.
I don't think a demon is going to entrust another demon (or devil) to create a phylactery for it.

I'm not saying no small and weak demon will ever have one, just that not every single one should have one

Perhaps for lesser summoned demons who are called into Ravenloft could have phylacteries, but those are used to earn their obedience. Wizard summons one and traps its soul.

[Drinnik Shoehorn]

What you've also got to remember about Quist is he has a Challenge rating of 2, whilst a shadow fiend has a challenge rating of 8. That's one higher than a succubus, and they certainly have phalactries, look at Elspeth.

[Jester of the FoS]

A Succubus has a phylactery. A good argument on the Hit Dice/CR though, I'd forgotten Shadow Fiends were so high (didn't check my books, they're rather burried and unavailable at the moment).
What's the Shadow Fiends HD/Int though? That probably has more to do with the strength of their soul and power than straight challenge rating. A summound Fiendish Bullette has high HD and CD but I'd doubt it has a phylactery.

[Drinnik Shoehorn]

A fiendish creature does not have the Evil subtype, so they get no wrinkle nor phalactary. Neither does a Half-Fiend. The same can be said of celestial creatures and Half Celestials.

A Shadowfiend has 7HD and an INT of 12.

[Jester of the FoS]

Yeah, but again, no book access. If I had my MM or Fiend Folio I could rattle off a few Evil-subtype creatures that are little more thank thinking tanks that would be entirly inappropriate for Ravenloft but who I doubt would also have a Phylactery.
Int of 12 is pretty average though. A Sucubus, while equally powerful, is much smarter than a Shadow Fiend.

[Drinnik Shoehorn]

OK, by Chris Nichols' guidelines above (Evil/Good subtype, Outsider type, no mists type) the monsters from the MM1that have reality wrinkles are

Achaierai, Barghests, Demons (Babu*, Balor*, Bebilith*, Dretch, Glabrezu*, Hezrou*, Marilith*, Nalfeshnee*, Quasit, Succubus*, Vrok*) Devils (Barbed Devils*, Bearded Devils*, Bone Devils*, Chain Devils*, Eryines*, Hellcats*, Horned Devils*, Ice Devils*, Imps, Lemures, Pit Fiends*), Hell Hounds, Howlers, Night Hags*, nightmares, Rakshasa*, shadow mastifs, varigoulles, Yeth Hounds

Angels*, Archons*, Eladrins*, Guardinals*, lillendi* Titans*(if you really want them...)

Creatures marked with an * are ones that should have a phalactery (they're all CR6+)