Cannon (boom boom) question

[Bloody Morgan]

This struck on me on my way into work today. Why aren't there cannons in Ravenloft? If a society - any society - has reached the point of making guns then they must have at some point built cannons. You don't go from crossbow to musket overnight. So why aren't they used? And if they are, then why are people still using wooden walls as baricades in the more advanced domains?

Answers on a postcode to Mr. Durham Web, 12, Maddock Street, Birmingham.

I'll give you that again. Answers on a postcode to Ms. Susan Harker, "The Well", Dulset, Alabama.

Bloody Morgan

[Igor the Henchman]

In Ravenloft, guns weren't invented. The domains just come out, *poof!* with fully-developed technological knowledge. And since open warfare is very uncommon, it stands to sense people would have little use for big and unwieldy weapons, and more use for smaller ones.

As far as I know, the first Ravenloft domain to have muskets and pistols is Mordent. By the time it got snatched by the Mists, that country was already developed enough technologically to have personal firearms. And since most darklords that spawned other enlightened domains are either former residents of Mordent or hail from the same world, their domains inherited the same culture and technology.

[Bloody Morgan]

Ok, that makes sense. We can all rest in our beds thankful that Vlad Drakov is a moron who hasn't considered all the possibilities he has open to him.

Thanks Igor!

[ScS of the Fraternity]

I'd say that Canons probably do exist. I mean, can you imagine a galleon sailing about with catapaults and ballista? Just doesn't keep them theme. Since the standard D&D rules don't have provisions for artillery thewriters convieniently left them out. Somewhere on this board is a keen series of rules for Canons and other artillery.

[alhoon]

I'd say that Canons probably do exist. I mean, can you imagine a galleon sailing about with catapaults and ballista? Just doesn't keep them theme.

I agree. However I would make Cannons really deadly. A single cannon ball should be able to kill a 7th-8th level fighter at least 70% of the time!
Assuming a 7th level fighter with 16 con and lucky with the dice, a not-that-big cannon should do about 70 hp damage on average. So about 5d6x4 damage on a successful range touch attack (Or an artillery check using ScS rules).
A small and not powerful cannon should do about 4d6x4 damage (56 hp on average) and a big cannon (not the biggest possible but the biggest in common use in a small land like Ravenloft) should do 6d6x4 damage (84 damage on average).

Against walls etc the cannons do (cannon damage-hardness) x2 damage.

[Igor the Henchman]

Ok, that makes sense. We can all rest in our beds thankful that Vlad Drakov is a moron who hasn't considered all the possibilities he has open to him.

Thanks Igor!

Well, of course, I only gave my point of view on the question, and as the books haven't adressed it before, everyone is free to disagree with me. I don't think canons are widely used in Ravenoft, because the people in control of state defense in most high-CL domains also happen to be their darklords. In case of attack, they can simply close the domain's borders. Now, Falkovnia can do these domains serious harm, but it would most likely be economical and political harm, not a serious military threat.

Now if we want cannons in Ravenloft, I'd give them to Dementlieu, Richemulot and Darkon. Démentlieu has a long, if foggy, history as a war-torn country before becoming what it is today, so most of its cannons would be relics from that period, and have probably not been used since the Démentlieu Annexation. Richemulot, because I get the impression Jacqueline is especially wary of Falkovnia and she has been striving to make the domain as modern, independant, and secure as possible. In Darkon, I think cannons are likely to be limited to the defence of Martira Bay and the navy ships.

I don't think Lamordia and Borca have cannons. Lamordia because of its limited population and weak economical power, and Borca because its a former medieval realm that modernized only recently. '

hmmm. Well, in afterthought, I suppose Ivan might have commissioned some cannons for his army when he noticed he could no longer close the borders of his domain.

[Malus Black]

This might be a relevant thread.

[Steve Miller]

I don't recall what was done in the Gazzes with this, but I recall when I was writing stuff for "The Evil Eye" I talked about how Falkovnia was trying to develope gunpowder weapons in its Invidian enclave, but that the facility kept meeting with strange disasters--fires, floods.. what have you.

Those disasters could have been the Dark Powers keeping things "the way their supposed to be,' or it could be agents from Falkovnians more advanced neighbors keeping gunpowder out of Vlad's hands.

(Frankly, I think the only Vlad strikes the stance "Bah! We don't need no stinking cannons and muskets!" is more due to the fact that he can't seem to get his hand on any of them in significant quantities than he doesn't see their usefulness.)

[Isabella]

Just for some historical tidbits, cannons were being developed during medieval times - they were first used in battle during the 1320s. That being said, they probably wouldn't have caught on in the medieval and recently rennaisance domains, mostly because early cannons were weak, pathetic things when they were first invented. Early gunners used coarse saltpeter, which barely propelled the cannonball out of the barrel. When gunners switched to fine saltpeter, the cannon gained much more power, but at the price of frequent cannon explosions and gunners losing their fingers (or worse). It was only around the 1460s that cannons became a major power - Bamburgh castle was taken with only two cannon.

In Ravenloft, Drakov might not have managed to get past the course saltpeter stage, and thus wouldn't have seen any usefulness in cannons. They would also be very hard to aim; unless Drakov had smaller fire arms for his men to use, cannons would be useless once they entered a skirmish (unless he wanted to blow his own men up).

Just my historical two cents.

[ScS of the Fraternity]

Now there is an idea!

What if Drakov rounded up a suicide squad? The Talons round up a band of young men and take their families hostage. The men have two choices:
1) Put on the bomb and blow themselves up
or
2) Have them and their whole family put on one big ass pike.

[Igor the Henchman]

(Frankly, I think the only Vlad strikes the stance "Bah! We don't need no stinking cannons and muskets!" is more due to the fact that he can't seem to get his hand on any of them in significant quantities than he doesn't see their usefulness.)

That might be a little difficult to justify. Vlad has a Ministry of Science at his disposal (first revealed in CotN:Werebeasts, I think) and no lack of money from grain exportation. In theory, if he really wanted those firearms, besides the Dark Powers, I don't see what would stop him on the long run.

I mean, the guy can commission magic bracers on a large scale, for crying out loud.

[JinnTolser]

Oh, the IRONY!!!

When I first saw the thread title, I assumed it was about Ravenloft canon, and that it had been misspelled again. As many of you remember, I'm sure, Azalin Rex used to tear people a new one all the time for talking about Ravenloft "Cannon." And here we are in a thread about actual cannons in Ravenloft, and it has more than once been spelled "canon."

I'm sorry, but I hope you all realize the irony in that.

Anyway, I think alhoon's got it about right. Cannons need to be effective, and those damage statistics sound pretty good to me.

Isabella, your point about the early ineffectiveness of cannons is well taken. Would you happen to know about when the musket was developed? That, I believe was still in use only a century or two ago, and it seems strange to me that Ravenloft could be so far ahead in personal firearms, yet so far behind in artillery. But I'm not sure how old the musket is, so maybe I'm way off here.

Also, I think I have to agree with Igor that Drakov doesn't really want guns that bad. After all, it seems pretty clear he isn't one to give up, even in the face of repeated failures. Not only has he never given up trying to invade Darkon, he doesn't even seem to recognize the pattern he's fallen into, or the inevitability of his failure. Such singlemindedness would surely lead him to keep trying for guns if he really wanted them.

[Bloody Morgan]

Oh, the IRONY!!!

When I first saw the thread title, I assumed it was about Ravenloft canon, and that it had been misspelled again. As many of you remember, I'm sure, Azalin Rex used to tear people a new one all the time for talking about Ravenloft "Cannon." And here we are in a thread about actual cannons in Ravenloft, and it has more than once been spelled "canon."

I'm sorry, but I hope you all realize the irony in that.

I do, but I was being polite and not mentioning it. I was reprimanded on my spelling of such on the old In Nomine mailing list many years ago and it's a lesson that stuck with me. Hence my boom boom comment to (hopefully) nip any misconceptions in the bud

However I would make Cannons really deadly. A single cannon ball should be able to kill a 7th-8th level fighter at least 70% of the time!

I use the d20 Modern Massive Damage rules in my game to help with situations like this - if you take more than your Con in damage from a single attack, make the Fort check or drop to -1 HP. This means that a cannon doesn't have to actually do an unrealistic amount of damage - not that the stats you gave are unrealistic - but it's very likely to take down even the toughest hero with one square hit. Making said save would represent being clipped on an extremity, probably having a limb broken and being sent spinning, but not taking a torso or head crushing shot.

And yes, I hadn't considered galleons but I suppose you have to have cannons to have pirates. I feel I wouldn't be living up to my pirate name to have it any other way.

This might be a relevant thread.

Thanks, will read through that and comment anon.

Bloody Morgan

EDIT: Here's where I slap my head and question my sanity. Of course I have d20 rules for all this, including pirates. I picked up Skull & Bones from Green Ronin at a convention last year, and have been raving about it ever since. Stupid Morgan.

[Fido]

I think the domains who would be able to put cannons to good use, aren't interested in them.
The domains who could produce cannons just wouldn't, because they're not into warfare.

No? Just a thought...

[Isabella]

Isabella, your point about the early ineffectiveness of cannons is well taken. Would you happen to know about when the musket was developed? That, I believe was still in use only a century or two ago, and it seems strange to me that Ravenloft could be so far ahead in personal firearms, yet so far behind in artillery. But I'm not sure how old the musket is, so maybe I'm way off here.

I believe that the handheld firearm was invented around the 16th century (1500s) - Flintlocks were developed during the early 1600s, replacing the unreliable matchlocks and wheellocks (although flintlocks were still very unreliable firearms, and the low production cost of matchlocks kept it in use until the 1700s). So yes, it would seem strange for a country with developed handheld guns to lack cannons.

I would keep in mind, however, Igor's point that Mordentshire was pulled from it's own land into Ravenloft - it may have had its cannons imported from other parts of its previous land, and then lack the production power and knowledge to make them on their own in Ravenloft.

A simpler explaination is that they choose not to make cannons or find no use for the bulky, hard-to-aim things on land, and the simplest reason (and the one that allows for cannons on galleons and pirate ships) is that the people who wrote up 3rd edition didn't think about cannons and that you're just on your own to decide whether they're there and why.