how many players is too much?

[nowonmai]

I am used to DM'ing 2 players for Ravenloft as this is probably the best for pure roleplaying and allowing time for story progression. This time around I have taken on 3 players. One is a very good roleplayer who is experienced with Ravenloft and knows the mood.

Another is my brother who has gamed quite a lot off and on over the years, but still has a hard time getting an indepth character. He often tends to have the same "hard arse" mentality and can do some brash things, but this time around he seems a lot better.

another is my bro's g/f who wanted to try gaming. She has been surprisingly good and can get into the story and roleplaying well, but at times can fall under the typical newbie fearless style.

Now things have gone slower than normal because of 3 players and all. I insist on having detailed, well roleplayed scenarios and encounters. I am ok that its gone a little slower as the game hase been very enjoyable (though not my best), and enveryone else is having a good time.

Now my bro wants to bring in a friend of his that we both gamed with in the past (all 3 of us were players in a custome campaign under a different DM). He seemed to have good style, but in other ways I wasnt used to it. He would min/max, tell us what to expect if we didnt know what a creature was (as the DM had his own) and some other habits that seemed like it would conflict with my game. When my bro told him that no one warned his g/f when she tried to cast sleep on some undead, he said one of the players should have warned her even though none of the characters new (and neither did she, the player). Another thing is that he hates undead. He has not watched any of the Dead movies even.

The guy is a good guy and I dont want to just shut him out. He seemed to have good potential, though I know I only said bad above. I think he has been used to this one DM we played under who encouraged powergaming with the logic of "of course every mage would use these spells and you will always encounter them as such. The military uses the same weapons, right? Because they are the best". He knows what Ravenloft is, and said he wants to try a new type of game as my brother raves about how good my games are and how well I can tell a story. He wants to be a "part time" player to check it out, and to work with me to create a character I control when he's not there. I am worried that it may be one too many players, and possibly the wrong type. How do you guys handle large groups, or players that dont quite get what Ravenloft is supposed to be? I really like a detailed, charged story

[Ivana_Boritsi]

I hate to say this, but it sounds like you have some serious reservations about the new player. And four players is very different from 2 players, which is what you are used to.

For me, 4 players is just the right amount, but it will vary from person to person.

If I were you, I would hold off on adding the 4th player. You sound cautious about it, so I wouldn't dive into it. Think about it this way: it's easy to invite a player in. It's really hard to get a player out.

Besides, didn't you just add your 3rd player recently?

[Jakob]

When my Ravenloft campaign ended a year ago, my players were EIGHT.
It was not a campaign: it was WORK.

Beleive me, stick to three-four players. ^_^

[Dion of the Fraternity]

It really depends on the type of RL campaign you're playing. I'm pretty much confy with three, and it's actually a challenge with four.

When my Ravenloft campaign ended a year ago, my players were EIGHT.

I played with TEN once. And half of them were drunk. Not a pretty picture.

[Jennifer]

Hi there Nowonmai,
I have played with three to six players and I like a group of 4 best. 5 is acceptable to me if they are experienced players and like each other. So it is really all a matter of taste.

However, I must agree with Ivana, you seem to have all sorts of reservations about adding a new player to your group. To me it seems you dont want to add another player, but feel pressured to do so and dont know the reasons.

Perhaps you could try it out once or twice, with the new player playing an NPC for one or two sessions so you can get the feel for a larger party. Make it clear that it is an experiment for you as well and subject to evaluation.

Jennifer

[Joël of the FoS]

The team I play with (since 1987) is comprised of 6 persons. Most of the time, everybody is present, ot we are five.

I mean, no matter the number, if they are all focusing on the game, it's great

Joël

[Pamela]

I agree with Ivana; if you have this many qualms about this player, you definitely should wait. By the way, what was your group's reaction to his comment that the last player should have been warned about not casting sleep on the undead? Were they okay about it, or was there any embarrassment?

[nowonmai]

Thanks for the input everyone, I aprreciate it.

Yes I do have reservations because I hate to see a game ruined and fizzle out, which happens a lot with groups in my case. The two reasons why I feel like I should give this guy a chance is because:

1) my bro has kept asking even though I carefully explained why I felt like it could be a bad idea

2) I feel that the extent of this guys roleplaying has been with this other DM who emphasizes powergaming. He probably hasnt had a chance to get more in depth.

The prospective player and I have been discussing this for the past few days, and I am warning him about how my campaigns are. I have warned its low magic, but has unique items (even if its "just" a +1 weapon its unique). I warned him I DM like how I played my character in the game we both were in, and he hated my paladin. I have been trying to explain how Ravenloft is different than my other games, like Planescape or Temple of Elemental Evil (modified). He still seems interested and brought up the idea of being "part time", mainly because he lives an hour away and I dont think he wants to muck up anything. I have also told him some of my concerns, like the game being too slow. So I think if this happens he will be an NPC.

The groups reaction to the sleep spell varied. The good player laughed at the idea and is wary of adding him for this reason (besides, he was amused seeing her continue to try to use sleep on undead) and my bro sort of agree's but still wants to try. My bro's g/f is indifferent. Should he join I will warn him about stuff like this.

The 3rd player (the really good one) has been here for almost the whole time. He joined after the first session were I sort of got everything laid out for my bro and his g/f, but he is now on his 2nd character due to a "mishap" the 1st character suffered.

Thanks again all for the input

[Gonzoron of the FoS]

I started my current campaign with 3, and soon added a 4th after careful consideration, and a 5th part-timer after even more careful consideration.

I really think 3-4 is ideal. I wouldn't have gone to 5 if it was anyone other than the guy that it was (who is a close friend and a very good player).

I did play Night of the Walking Dead with somewhere around 11-13 once. Nightmare. Absolute Nightmare.

It seems like your problem isn't the number, but the player. If you can keep him in line, and maybe teach him a few things, go for it. (If he was at my table and he told someone sleep doesn't work on undead, I would ask a) do you know the spell (if no, then your character doesn't know that). b) if yes, have you ever cast it on undead? (if no, then your character doesn't know that.)) After a few times of something like that, he should get the point.

To ensure that he doesn't pull the "every mage would know that" thing, make sure he knows how rare mages are and how few places they can gather and share knowledge safely. Emphasize the "everyman" nature of ravenloft by making him provide a non-adventuring occupation for his character (as recommended by someone in the character creation thread.)

[Nathan of the FoS]

I play with five and wouldn't object to six if they really wanted to be in the game. Seven is, as Monty Python says, right out.

I've done seven in the past, plus one NPC, which was just plain too many; I had to divide the party into two parts and run them separately. The nice thing about that was that they could do it; each party functioned as a complete party while divided. The bad thing was, of course, all the down time; it just takes too long to do everything to hold people's interest.

[Undead Cabbage]

I'll support Joel's statement that the emphasis is on the focus and the maturity of the players, and not the number. Although really, above 6 is way too much.

On the note of casting sleep on Undead, or any other game mechanic a player would otherwise not know, sometimes the best way for players to learn things is the hard way. If you tell them some things straight up, they won't appreciate the rule quite as much.

Powers Checks, low magic, undetectable moral alignments (if you use them), the Dark powers, and Darklords are just a few examples of things that it's best for a player to learn in game about. They all make good adventure hooks in the end, and telling the player about them will more likely portray an image of Darklords being merely a Game Mechanic, and not a functional part of the plot. If their characters learn what Darklords are along with the player, they will appreciate them more.

[Rotipher of the FoS]

To ensure that he doesn't pull the "every mage would know that" thing, make sure he knows how rare mages are and how few places they can gather and share knowledge safely. Emphasize the "everyman" nature of ravenloft by making him provide a non-adventuring occupation for his character (as recommended by someone in the character creation thread.)

For that matter, if he's playing one of the "mundane" classes (i.e. fighter, rogue, barbarian), you could even guarantee he'll get the idea that he's not allowed to act up as "group monster/magic-expert", by having his PC be a Mist-napped outlander from a non-magical world like our own. The Mists are capable of going virtually anywhere in the cosmos, AFAWK, so it's not so hard to imagine them snapping up a person from Earth's historical past, any more than it is that they'd nab Maligno from the MotRD setting. His PC could have the same combat- or skill-based capabilities as any other Brb/Ftr/Rog PC, but he'd be a complete newbie when it comes to dealing with spells, supernatural forces or nonhuman enemies.

[nowonmai]

gonzoron - 11 PC's?! Good god! Imagine Marcel's reaction when he gets rushed by 11 PC's.

Anyways, I believe he is more interested in playing a priest. I gave him some very quick descriptions of some of the faiths that are in the lands, and it sounds like he is more interested in either being one of the Morninglords (essentially a Lathander cult in my game) or a priest of Belenus (and mabye more Celtic gods). He has never played a priest before he said. If he does play and if he is a priest, I hope he preaches it up to the party. I may encourage him to ask the others to do favors to the faith (beyond simple tithing) to recieve greater and greater blessings. Gifts and such, or perhaps joining in morning prayers and observing certain taboos.

I think if I try to be optimistic about this and give him time to adjust it may work. I am giving him some hints on my style by helping him design a campaign he is attempting to run. He may see things very differently when and if he really gets into DM'ing; it may frustrate him if PC's act unaccordingly to a given situation.

Oh, and Rotipher - This is a 2nd ed campaign, no Barb's. Or Sorc's. Yes, I am a heathen and proud of it!

[Ivana_Boritsi]

Yes I do have reservations because I hate to see a game ruined and fizzle out, which happens a lot with groups in my case.

This statement tells me right here that you are predicting that if you let him into your game, it will fizzle out.

The two reasons why I feel like I should give this guy a chance is because:

1) my bro has kept asking even though I carefully explained why I felt like it could be a bad idea

2) I feel that the extent of this guys roleplaying has been with this other DM who emphasizes powergaming. He probably hasnt had a chance to get more in depth.

This statement right here tell me that despite all of your reservations, the primary reason that you might let him into your game is because of pressure from your brother and because you might feel (guilty?) about not letting this guy in.

External pressure and guilt are not good reasons to allow a player into your campaign.

Think about it this way. If you do let the player into your game and it sucks, you are doing a disservice to yourself, your current players, and to the new guy. You are hurting your own campaign that you did hard work for, you are cheating your current players out of a fun experience, and you are actually causing trouble for the new player because you are causing him to drive an hour out of his way to get there for a campaign that will ultimately fall apart.

However, I can also tell from your statements that you've been backed into a corner and it will be hard for you to say no. If your brother really wants his best friend to come and join you...it's hard to say no and look like the good guy.

This will sound cheap and cruel, but usually when I turn someone down I tell them something like, "You can join after the next story arc is done." or "We'll talk about it." or "Here, write up a three page background on your character. We'll discuss it and how you fit into the campaign."

Sure, sounds cheap and cruel, but people usually get the idea....

[Gonzoron of the FoS]

gonzoron - 11 PC's?! Good god! Imagine Marcel's reaction when he gets rushed by 11 PC's.

I don't think we ever got that far. Things started to degenerate once they hit Marais D'Tarascon and split up into 3 or 4 groups. It was a real disaster. It was supposed to be just 4 or 5, but then became "My girlfriend/buddy/brother never played D&D before. Can she/he come?" Being a huge geek at the time, trying to become slighlty popular, I couldn't say no. Oh, and 2 of us were alergic to the home of our host, so we played outside. In near-darkness. Fun!