Comparing monsters

Discussing all things Ravenloft
Post Reply
User avatar
HuManBing
Evil Genius
Evil Genius
Posts: 3748
Joined: Fri Jan 28, 2005 9:13 am
Contact:

Comparing monsters

Post by HuManBing »

After Ravenloft began offering ways to improve various undead, lycanthropes, and other beasties, I wondered what people thought of the balance of these creatures. It all started with the Black Box, and was quickly taken up by the Van Richten's Guide books.

Now, vampires and liches and lycanthropes are de facto templates to apply to existing characters (usually NPCs) rather than static enemies, as they once were in Monstrous Compendium I. I took a look at them and wondered how powerful they really are.

Liches: Once upon a time, these were hailed as the greatest of undead, and in the Monster Manual 3.5, they still are identified as such, albeit tentatively. These are my personal favorite undead, and I generally like to view them as cold, calculating enemies who are rarely, if ever, distracted by mere emotions.

In terms of the dice and abilities and powers, they have spellcasting ability, but nowadays any template that can use mage or cleric spells has that too. They have some nice immunities, to cold/fear/charm/polymorph, and their touch attack is moderately powerful, with an insidious secondary effect if save failed.

But in terms of on the ground fighting, they are not as powerful as vampires, and their spellcasting and intellect are much more DM-dependent. They cannot fly, do not transmit disease, do not drain energy levels, and their magical skills are actually readily available to any other creatures who have access to mage/cleric class levels. Because of these, I believe they are actually among the weakest of the undead. Their main saving grace is their phylactery, which is still inferior to a vampire's coffin, because they only have one phylactery whereas a vampire (like Dracula or Strahd) can have many coffins.

Liches also do not regenerate damage (unless you agree that they can use their negative energy touch attack on themself, in which case they "heal" 1d8+5 points per full action).

How do you like to role play liches? What tactics are especially devastating with them? Especially, what valid spell combinations do you like to play around with, using liches?

Vampires: These got a considerable boost in 2nd and 3rd edition, and now with ability increases by age, these are in my opinion among the strongest undead foes. To allow PCs a chance against them, the focus is no longer on swordplay and more on role playing... but instead of creatively plotting out strengths, as with the lich, the DM needs to creatively plot out weaknesses for the vampire. Where is the coffin? What revulsions does it have? What NPC plot devices can the DM justify as "untouchables" for the vampire? One major advantage the lich has over the vampire - the fact that it does not risk senility or psychological deterioration with age - is unquantifiable and is entirely up to the DM to adjudicate. Few bother.

Combatwise, the vampire is a powerhouse. Its charm plays havoc with PCs, and its drain ability accelerates combat in a way that spells and swords do not. It shrugs off a lot of damage with reductions that liches do not have, and even if you do injure it, its regeneration goes beyond anything a lich has. Plus, they fly!

Just add a few wizard classes to the mix, and you wonder why any mage would even bother with the troublesome potion and the expensive Craft Phylactery process. Wouldn't it be easier to find a vampire, submit to its will, and then get your friends standing by to whack it and free you from thrallhood?

(Obviously this is mostly facetious but there's an element of genuine inquiry here.)

Wolfwere, greater: These also are often overlooked, but they have one deadly ability that makes them very hard to kill - they regenerate all damage at the end of each combat round. Using conventional means, that means the only way you have a chance against it is to gang up on it, hoping to deal enough damage to slay it in one round of combat. Introducing more than one of these beasts is very bad news for most PC parties.

Baron Urik von Kharkov is one interesting example. He's a werebeast and a vampire, giving him a host of special powers. A pity he didn't have any Vistani blood in him, or accidentally get mummified. ;)

Either way, tell me what you think and we'll get some tips going for how to use monsters creatively.
User avatar
alhoon
Invisible Menace
Invisible Menace
Posts: 9088
Joined: Thu Dec 11, 2003 6:46 pm
Location: Chania or Athens // Greece

Post by alhoon »

Liches:
Yes, they are a bit weaker than vampires in abilites. I mean A 14th level wizard vampire has better stats than a 14th level lich. However Liches have NO weaknesses. While Vampires have to deal with all short of nuissances, like daylight sleep, garlic, running water etc.

Also do not underestimate the Phylactery. A vampire can have many coffins but it needs access to it coffin. Even if the coffin is in a room behind a 10' thick wall with tiny cracks so that it can get there in gaseous form, a dimension door spell or a teleport solves the problem. On the other hand:
A phylactery can be in a permanent nondetection (or more powerful) spell, burried in a pillar of stone 20' radius around it. And that pillar could be in a nice iron room 500' bellow the deepest of the Lich's dungeons. The room has no access except through magic. In the room near the pillar there could be a copy of some of the Lich's spell and some extra magic items, along with a dozen of corpses, so that the lich has somewhere to return.

About the stats of the Lich: Liches do not get increased stats as Vampires do with age. However, I would advise that a Lich gets a +1 inherent intelligence bonus according to the timetable for vampires. Inherent bonuses do not stack with wishes BTW. In case of non wizard liches a +1 to the primary casting ability score.

About the healing with its touch: It is negative energy isn't it? I would however point to the Heroes of Horror and suggest that a Lich heals only 6 points per touch to itself, like a Dread Necromancer of 20th level.
"You truly see what a person is made of, when you begin to slice into them" - Semirhage
"I am not mad, no matter what you're implying." - Litalia
My DMGuild work!
User avatar
The Giamarga
Evil Genius
Evil Genius
Posts: 2313
Joined: Wed Jan 19, 2005 7:11 pm
Location: wandering

Post by The Giamarga »

And if you want to power up the Lich template a bit, modify the Vampire (so that he drains energy by bite for example), update Risen and Ghosts and use different tiers and more SLAs check out the Official Dicefreaks templates for them. IMHO they improve the WotC templates a lot and are not really overpowered. The Ravenloft age category rules were an inspiration in their creation btw.
Last edited by The Giamarga on Tue May 02, 2006 8:34 am, edited 1 time in total.
User avatar
HuManBing
Evil Genius
Evil Genius
Posts: 3748
Joined: Fri Jan 28, 2005 9:13 am
Contact:

Post by HuManBing »

That was a good thread - thanks.

The Lich template at Dicefreaks also answers one of the main questions that VRGtLich left unanswered, which is why liches have to initiate power rituals and what they gain from it. That thread has a few good ideas for further salient abilities they gain, as well as ability score increases.

In general, I'd imagine that liches would make use of minor undead minions, so it makes sense that they'd stock up on spells that do group damage only to living things.

Stinking cloud and Cloudkill might be good contenders. Once in 2nd ed. there was a spell called Death Fog, but that's been removed now. That would have been an obvious lich spell. Maybe Ice storm or even Horrid Wilting could be used without fear of hurting undead?
User avatar
ScS of the Fraternity
Moderator
Moderator
Posts: 2409
Joined: Fri Nov 28, 2003 10:46 pm
Location: Toronto
Contact:

Post by ScS of the Fraternity »

Man, don't get me started on those "vampires". It always pissed me off that the inherant flavour fo vampires was burried beneath the unfounded need to make them "Hack-worthy".

I'll agree with you that number wise, Liches aren't more powerful than vampires of the same level. However, I would like to point out that vampires need to feed.
Just as Strahd pointed out in the War against Azalin, vampires are not trully dead because the retain their hunger - their need to feed makes them vital creatures, albiet slightly more room temperature than others.
Liches, on the otherhand, are trully dead. They hunger naught, want naught, love naught.

So, what comes of this?
A vampire needs humans and other living beings to drain of life. They need to locate themselves close to civilization so that they can feed. So, you can be sure that a vampire is within a given radius of civilization.

Think on the the need to hunt - how many hours out of the night need be taken up so that the vampire can find a victim, drain them and either destroy the body or shallowfeed and thus need to find another victim.

Even if a vampire keeps a "winecellar" of victims, these will need to be replenished from time to time. Once again, the vampire needs to be relatively close to civilization. Worse yet! The winecellar itself needs feeding, watering and.. ugh... the ocassional mopping. This means that the vampire either must devote more time to doing these disgusting chores, or have other minions to do it for him. Then there's the food that must be purchased or harvested and prepared for the winecellar - gruel doesn't just grow on trees y'know :).

So, unless a vampire is living like an animal (hunting and killing as it goes), he or she needs to build up quite the little operation just to keep up. Considering all the time they sleep, travel and eat, a vampire may get as little as 7 hours of operation every day (with more in the winter).
Then there's that blasted coffin - which they have to have nearby so that they might sleep in it. They need a safe place for the coffin - unless they have a crew of henchmen carrying it along.

Being a vampire sounds like one of those tricks the devil plays on you - sure you have power, but maintaining that power is a total bitch.

Compare that to a Lich.
The lich has no limit on time - so they have 24 hours a day, seven days a week in which to work their foul will. They have no need to eat or drink, so they can lair as far from civilization as possible. They can live in the harshest of terrian - at the top of a mountain, in the center of a glacier, surrounded by volcanoes, under the sea, ect....
This is the basic set up of an adventure - travelling through hellish terrain in order to get near the liche's dungeon, and then taking on the lich AND THEN looking for the lich's phalactry.
Right there. thatThink on the the need to hunt - how many hours out of the night need be taken up so that the vampire can find a victim, drain them and either destroy the body or shallowfeed and thus need to find another victim.
And through that whole journey, the players may never once meet another living being.
Thats epic stuff already.
Evil Reigns!!!!
User avatar
alhoon
Invisible Menace
Invisible Menace
Posts: 9088
Joined: Thu Dec 11, 2003 6:46 pm
Location: Chania or Athens // Greece

Post by alhoon »

ScS: I agree on your point of vampire weaknesses (I have mentioned them too) However the real problem is comparing a lich with a 4th rank Ghost or 4th Magnitude mummy.
All liches get a +2 to mental and that is for all eternity.
IMO they need a boost up.

As for vampires? They are social or they are animals. :)
"You truly see what a person is made of, when you begin to slice into them" - Semirhage
"I am not mad, no matter what you're implying." - Litalia
My DMGuild work!
User avatar
Rotipher of the FoS
Thieving Crow
Thieving Crow
Posts: 4683
Joined: Sat Dec 06, 2003 4:18 pm

Post by Rotipher of the FoS »

alhoon wrote:However the real problem is comparing a lich with a 4th rank Ghost or 4th Magnitude mummy.
All liches get a +2 to mental and that is for all eternity.
IMO they need a boost up.
Since you mention them, how do powerful ghosts and ancients measure up against liches and vampires, IYO?
"Who [u]cares[/u] what the Dark Powers are? They're [i]bastards![/i] That's all I need to know of them." -- Crow
User avatar
Gemathustra
Evil Genius
Evil Genius
Posts: 578
Joined: Wed Dec 10, 2003 11:31 pm
Location: The Cleft of Dimensions

Post by Gemathustra »

Aren't lichs still able to gain in (magic-user) levels?
"Arrogant mortal! You are in my world now and you will never leave this attic alive! I will destroy you, and then I will possess she whom you love the most. And there is not a single thing in the world you can do to stop me!"
*poke*
"OW!"
-Dracula
User avatar
HuManBing
Evil Genius
Evil Genius
Posts: 3748
Joined: Fri Jan 28, 2005 9:13 am
Contact:

Post by HuManBing »

Gemathustra wrote:Aren't lichs still able to gain in (magic-user) levels?
Yes, the same way vampires can.
User avatar
alhoon
Invisible Menace
Invisible Menace
Posts: 9088
Joined: Thu Dec 11, 2003 6:46 pm
Location: Chania or Athens // Greece

Post by alhoon »

HuManBing wrote:
Gemathustra wrote:Aren't lichs still able to gain in (magic-user) levels?
Yes, the same way vampires can.
And mummies and ghosts. :)

Rotipher: Ghosts and mummies don't have any great problems or inabilites etc. However, they don't go up in rank either like Liches.

However, High magnitude/rank Mummies and Ghosts get far more ability bonuses than Liches.

A 13th level wizard Lich is weaker than a 13th level wizard 4th magnitude mummy or a 4th rank ghost. Liches get their phylactery though... That balances things in power in a way. Ability-wise however, they are far weaker.
"You truly see what a person is made of, when you begin to slice into them" - Semirhage
"I am not mad, no matter what you're implying." - Litalia
My DMGuild work!
Post Reply