On magic items...

[alhoon]

Just so we stop hijacking the other thread:

What I suggest: IMC I double the carfting price of magic items (XP costs, gp cost and time).

Why? You said yourself that even a +1 sword costs 1000 gp, and that's more than some adventurers might see in years. At least in Ravenloft where giant dragon hordes are rare...

Yeap, dragon hordes are rare, but gold isn't.

Of course, 3rd level characters in a standard campaign would have almost 3k to buy swords and armour, but that does add up.

RL (N)PCs should have that wealth in form of real estate, trading goods, etc.
and not everything pumped into just min-maxed magical battlegear. Also one should rigorously apply living costs, and perhaps even the training rules for level advancement.

Yes, but since spellcasters don't just throw gold into magic items but buy material components etc, so they could trade their 100 bolts of Silk for the materials needed for the magic items. Also it is more than realistic for a person that fights horrors 24/7 to put his wealth in magic protection than buying a better pair of shoes or twelve nice horses.

[Jester of the FoS]

We didn't hijack the thread, the discussion evolved as they are wont to do.

I always feel iffy removing the ability of players to make magic items. It is such a balanced and incorporated part of the game now and removing the ability to brew potions and scribe scollls handicaps most magical classes.
And with damage reduction not having any magical items makes combat much more deadly without a compensating increase in challenge rating or experience rewards.

Really, magical items depend on how much gold one is handing out. If money is steady and frequent then you're already lenient and free enough that magic items will not break a game. If you're stingy (aka realistic) with the rewards keeping the players wealthy enough that they don't starve and are motivated to continue adventuring.
In my last mini-campaign the players quickly rose to fifth level where they could have, concievably, had magical items and made magical goods. However, they barely had 200gold and much of that was from selling horses captured from enemies. They stripped foes of everything because they knew the resale value from their crappy shortswords meant they didn't have to man their store for a few weeks.
They had experience to possibly burn for magic items, a single small encounter would have paid for it, but they simply didn't have the money.

Gold isn't rare but the average person only sees a few hundred evey year, and most of that goes to bills and rent and food. Very few people should have hundreds or thousands of gold pieces just sitting around waiting to be stolen.

I don't see why it should be even harder for characters to make magical items. If they decide to scrimp and save they should be rewarded. Sure there should be some small quest involved for parts and the time concerns should be a part but all but denying them magical items all together is just cruel.

If they make it then it's guaranteed to be memorable and unique, it's an instant backstory.

[Undead Cabbage]

The cost, both materially (gp and materials) and spiritually (exp) to craft magic items could potentially vary from realm to realm as well.

In the land of Hazlan, where magic seeps from ancient artifacts teeming with strange powers, the expense of crafting items may go down. In the land of Lamordia, where cold hard logic racks any magic in the area, the cost of crafting them may go up.

It could also be easier to make some items in some realms than it is in others, due to the availability of materials. In Blackbern's Crossing, a town in Mordent designed for the purpose alchemy and potion brewing, the materials for potions may come cheap. Whereas in Nova Vaasa, where arcane magic is frowned upon, and trade is heavily governed, getting the right materials to brew a potion might require a little extra something.

Crafting Magic items shouldn't be seen as something that will ruin your campaign. Indeed, magic items themselves can add an element of occult mystery that fits well in your gothic horror campaign. It's all how you interpret their crafting. Crafting is an opportunity to flesh out the campaign for great spell caster players. However, I may advise that one watch out for players who are just looking to stack their character sheets. Crafting magic items should mean something, and take some extra work on the part of the PCs.

[alhoon]

Gold isn't rare but the average person only sees a few hundred evey year, and most of that goes to bills and rent and food. Very few people should have hundreds or thousands of gold pieces just sitting around waiting to be stolen.

Yeap. But what about after they kill the evil vampire lord aristocrat 6th? That was draining the villages in his care for the last 30 years? Now they have a manor to sell.

[Tobias Blackburn]

Gold isn't rare but the average person only sees a few hundred evey year, and most of that goes to bills and rent and food. Very few people should have hundreds or thousands of gold pieces just sitting around waiting to be stolen.

Yeap. But what about after they kill the evil vampire lord aristocrat 6th? That was draining the villages in his care for the last 30 years? Now they have a manor to sell.

Why in the world would the villagers allow them to take possession of the manor? If he was their lord, that place is state property. Also, what are the chances of anyone wanting to buy it? The villagers aren't likely to have the funds, it is going to be hard to to find someone willing to move to such an out of the way place, and that doesn't even begin to touch on finding a buyer who can look past the whole "former home of an evil vampire" stigma.

[Jester of the FoS]

To say nothing of Sinkhole of Evil and the like.

Well, if the vampire has been draining the coffers, no one in the region could afford it. And you'd still top out at the GP limit of the town (DMG pg 137). And even then they'll only get somewhere between 2,500 and 5,000 gp for it.

Sure, they'll be able to outfit the party with -maybe- +1 weapons and/or armour, but only after removing the sinkhole and purifying the land, RPing the sale, sacraficing a few hundred xp and at least one feat (if not 2 or 3). That's pretty lengthy a process and if they're willing to put up with doing that they deserve something for the troubles. At least the poor mage who's sacraficing the better part of a level while everyone else kicks butt.

[Irving the Meek]

Well, the Dark Powers rarely say "no" to someone... but they do tack on an extra little cost, or give you something you weren't expecting.

Here's my take on magic items:

Potions and Scrolls - don't fiddle with these - they're bread and butter magic items that are too useful to screw with. Wands, too, altough I prefer alternate shapes than pointed sticks (amulets, holy symbols, what have you.)

It's the permanent magic items that give Ravenloft GMs pause. I'd recommend this approach.

Magic item creation in Ravenloft is very, very similar to golem creation. A caster can go the long way around and craft it in a conventional manner - but this generally involves binding a spirit or soul to the blade, either a summoned outsider or a ghost. Alternately, magic weapons can be created through desire. (I'll refer you to Montoya's blade in The Princess Bride...) Such items also have their own malevolent intelligence, altough it's much harder to say where such things come from. To maximize the functionality of low-level items, I'd recommend waiving the section of the rules wheby a weapon that isn't aligned with the character grants a negative level.

The upshot is that all magic weapons have at least a dim glimmering of intelligence. Sometimes that intelligence is so faint it's not an issue... and other times, the malevolent genius in your helm is just biding its time.

I'd also firmly suggest reading over the section on cursed items - especially requirements and drawbacks. A couple of those can add some flavor and make weapons interesting, and serve as an alternative for when it makes no sense for an item to be intelligent. The Dark Powers would cheerfully double the chances of a cursed item being crafted.

Obviously Weapons of Legacy offers some great potential for unique, exicitng weapons like this. Even without that resource, though, a few twists in the magic item creation process can provide some excellent reasons for magic items to be rare. They can also be unique, disturbing, and exciting, always Good Things in a Ravenloft campaign.

I'd never have a "simple" +1 sword in my game if I could help it - something like this, though....

Rapier of Blood-Quenched Bronze

+1 rapier
Int 10, Wis 12, Cha 12
Neutral Evil, Ego 9
Bearer has deathwatch continually active
Must kill a living being to activate the item for 24 hours

This blade has a fuller of bronze that runs the length of the blade. Arcane runes in a flowing, cursive script are engraved down the brass strip's length. The basket is made of curling, twisting bronze wire, and the grip is made of ivory. As you grasp the blade, your mouth feels dry, and a vague sense of anger intrudes on your consciousness.

This blade is powered by a minor blood elemental, who still thirsts for what it once was. If the blade's owner ever loses an Ego check, the blade will demand that the sacrifices used to fuel it be as sadistic - and bloody - as possible.

Heh. This is fun. More magic items in a bit.

[alhoon]

To say nothing of Sinkhole of Evil and the like.

Who said that the chars would sell it high? And don't forget that the vampire aristocrat probably has 30 years of taxing in the coffers. Yes, if you want to be stingy, you certainly can. IMC I would award the PCs with items with sale value of at least 10000 gp (if they were 6th level) some of these items would actually be the vampire's magic items and his guards masterwork equipment.

And certainly the sale takes time. Game time however. I let the PCs find buyers in large cities with gather info and diplomacy rolls. It takes my PCs about two weeks to a month to sell loot costing 10-15000 gp to someone they can trust that will not just attack them to take the items. It takes about 5-10 minutes of real time.

Irving: That's neat, by I prefer to also use safe magic items IMC.

[Corrupted_Loremaster]

Of course, how to go about selling the manor is only really an issue if they don't decide to just loot everything even remotely mobile and skip town under cover of darkness, as I once saw a party do in a similar situation. I seem to recall the DM decided to take the oppurtunity to sneak a cursed item or two on to them.

[Dion of the Fraternity]

Obviously Weapons of Legacy offers some great potential for unique, exicitng weapons like this. Even without that resource, though, a few twists in the magic item creation process can provide some excellent reasons for magic items to be rare. They can also be unique, disturbing, and exciting, always Good Things in a Ravenloft campaign.

May 30, 2006

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[Irving the Meek]

Dion:

Yes, please! Thank you! (Ebonbane, perhaps?)

Alhoon -

Not every cursed item has to be malevolent, or even out to get you. I tried coming up with a Ravenloft spin on the most banal magic item I could think of, and here's my best shot. This would be a nice one for a low-level cleric, or even a rogue for that matter...

Pilgrim's Ring
Ring of Protection +1
Intelligence 12 Wisdom 10 Charisma 10
Lawful neutral
Ego 4
Has knowledge religion(11)
Must sacrifice 50 gold at a holy shrine every month

This cheap tin ring is stamped with the holy symbol of Ezra and the name of a local shrine. Despite its common appearance, the ring seems to be extremely well made - the stamps are crisp and clean. The ring seems oddly heavy in your hand.

This ring was worn by a well-travelled pilgrim who died on the road from one shrine of Ezra to another. Its owners often find themselves inexplicably drawn to obscure shrines and saint's resting places while on the road. If this ring ever asserts dominace over its owner, he will make the trip to the nearest such shrine immediately, turning aside from his chosen destination.

[alhoon]

My thanks Irving. That's what I was talking about. A nice idea, a nice item.

[Dion of the Fraternity]

(Ebonbane, perhaps?)

Unfortunately, I intentionally chose to leave out Ebonbane for two reasons, primarily its nonexistent official 3e stats, and its impracticality as a legacy item due to its status as darklord.

However, as an offset, I will be including an item which has already been elaborated upon in one of the Gazetteers.