Ravenloft languages

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Ravenloft languages

Post by doctor-evil »

In a Masque of the Red Death WE by Rucht Lilaviat the idea of a language ranking system was introduced. I've been tinkering with this for my Ravenloft campaign and I'm posting my house rules for comments or ideas.

In the current D&D system, if a character spends skill points on a language, it’s assumed that they can speak the language fluently. So you get characters able to speak a newly learned language fluently like a native, after only a few weeks/ one month’s study.

To remedy this, the more skill points a character puts into a language, the more fluent the character is.

These are the four basic langauge levels introduced by Rucht Lilaviat in the WE:

1 rank - you can speak basic phrases e.g. “three beers please”, ask directions, booking inn accommodation etc. Enough to survive and get around. You have an extremely strong accent and may have difficulties in being understood at times. i.e. Basic tourist level language skills.

2 ranks - You have a basic conservational level and can have simple conversations about common subjects (e.g. the weather). You have a strong accent. For those living in the UK, if you got a decent grade at "O" level, you'd have level two in a language.

3 ranks - relatively fluent. You can discuss more complex subjects including politics and science and can read popular "literature" in the language. You have a slight, but recognizable accent. e.g. Abraham Van Helsing in Dracula (definitely not the Hugh Jackman version).

4 ranks - Scholarly or superior level. You have no accent whatsoever, unless you choose to. You can discern and master accents and dialectic variations. You also understand archaic versions of the language. e.g. Chaucer and Shakespeare would be an easy read reads. Kenneth Brannah and members of the Royal shakespeare company would have a level 4 in English.

Now - my tweaks...

For a Ravenloft campaign to purchase a rank of a language, including the first rank generally costs 2 skill points (a cross-class skill) for most classes. Language ranks only cost 1 skill point for Bards and some prestige classes (e.g. spymaster, loremaster).

Starting Languages:

A starting character has typically one or two automatic languages (e.g. common (domain langauge in Ravenloft) and dwarvish for a dwarf). These automatically are considered to be spoken at Rank 4, unless the character has penalties due to low intelligence – these apply to the maximum starting language rank of the character e.g. a character with an intelligence of 8 or 9 starts with a language rank of 3 in their automatic languages. A character with an intelligence of 6 or 7 has rank 2, 4 or 5 has rank 1. A character with an intelligence of 3 has a rank of “0.5” - their accent is almost impenetrable, and their spoken language skills are nearly non-existent (i.e. "Mungo hungry" is about the level used). They are also functionally illiterate.

Skill points can be spent, however, to improve linguistic skills, e.g. a character with an intelligence of 7 (and starting language rank of 2) can spend 2 skill points (or 1 if a bard) to increase their language level to 3.

A starting character also has a number of bonus languages equal to their intelligence modifier.

The fluency of the character in these languages is also equal to their intelligence modifier, e.g. a character with an intelligence of 12 (+1 INT modifier) speaks one bonus language at level 1. A character with an intelligence of 18 (+4 INT modifier) speaks 4 bonus languages at a fluency level 4.

Literacy:

This level of understanding does not necessarily apply to writing and reading skills. Literacy was a relatively rare skill to possess until the reformation and the advent of printed books. For lands of a technological level of less than 8 or 9 (prior the 1650s) characters from a lower-class background, and average intelligence (10-11) or less should take the special trait “illiterate” (see unreathed arcana) unless there is a reason why the character has been taught to read (e.g. the character was raised by monks/nuns, the family made sacrifices to send the character to a local church school).

Characters with above average intelligence (12+) from a lower class background may also “self taught” themselves to read/write, when a child or youth, if they so wish, but they may also take the “illiterate” special trait if they wish.

Illiterate: you cannot read nor write. You do however gain a +1 bonus to the skill of your choice. This may be typically be a craft or profession, but not necessarily so. It costs 2 skill points to become literate, but you still keep the +1 bonus to the chosen skill.

Ravenloft languages families:

Souragnian is a based on real world French, like High Mordentish. Characters speaking Souragnian can speak High Mordentish at two levels/ranks lower than their Souragnian fluency. This is because there are a number of shared or similar sounding words in the vocabularies of the two languages.

As High Mordentish and Low Mordentish are based on real world French and English respectively, I threat them as two separate languages. A character living in Mordentshire would choose which language was their primary language depending on their social class.

Draconic:

The celestial dragons brought language to the Middle Kingdom (China). In my campaign I assume Draconic is similar to chinese/japanese character systems with some Sanskrit/Tibetan characters mixed in. Oriental domains may use draconic characters as a writing system. Frequently magical texts use draconic as a written language, hence the common use of this language by mages.

Anyway, I'd be interested in comments.... :?:

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Post by HuManBing »

I like your proposed system. As somebody who has been wrestling with Mandarin Chinese and Cantonese Chinese for far too long, I agree that the system in d20 is a little oversimplistic when it comes to fluency in a language. The idea of ranks in the languages is something I'd been toying with for a while, but had not specifically codified the way you have.

I also like the way you have divided speaking and reading/writing a language. I hang around Chinese people all the time and my spoken Chinese is pretty much fluent, but I can't read it very well and my writing is even worse. By the same token, seven years of French and German classes in the United Kingdom has taught me to read French and German websites and newspapers, but I can't speak those with any degree of fluency.

Ravenloft is ideal for this, because the archetypes are very easily identifiable with European roots, and that lends a sense of diversity in a very crowded small demiplane.

Also, I love your idea about Draconic being a Chinese-style language. No wonder the Chinese have those large scrolls with enormous characters on them! Makes sense, if you deduce how large a dragon's calligraphy brush must be to carry... :)

There was an Asian Ravenloft thread on here not too long ago. If you need a place for the Draconic language to come from, you could check that out.
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Post by Rotipher of the FoS »

I'm not sure if I'd want to go to quite such an extreme, or at least not in a Ravenloft game. As there's no Common in Ravenloft -- or even a few dominant "world languages" that'll at least let you get by in most places, like English or French IRL -- it'd really hinder PCs' ability to function in large portions of the game-setting, particularly for those Islands and Clusters with their own isolated languages. :?

Perhaps a situation where PCs can't make themselves understood in most parts of the world is what you're looking for, but personally I'd more likely do just the opposite, and make it easier for characters to pick up a smattering of a language, while keeping the skill-rank cost for true fluency the same. Rather than always needing to spend 2 points on a new language, I'd rather allow most classes to spend a single point for partial fluency in a particular language, meaning they'd have to make a skill check (modified by Int, DC based on the complexity of whatever they're trying to convey) to make themselves understood in that tongue. Spend another point, and they're fully fluent, so needn't make checks any more. Bards and so on could either spend a point to be fully fluent in one language, or else spend that same point for partial fluency in two different tongues.

But that's just motormouth me, choosing to facilitate PCs' jabbering with NPCs rather than impede it. If communication-difficulties are one of the ways you prefer to unnerve your players, by all means, go for it!
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Post by doctor-evil »

[quote="HuManBing"]I like your proposed system. As somebody who has been wrestling with Mandarin Chinese and Cantonese Chinese for far too long, I agree that the system in d20 is a little oversimplistic when it comes to fluency in a language. The idea of ranks in the languages is something I'd been toying with for a while, but had not specifically codified the way you have.

I also like the way you have divided speaking and reading/writing a language.


Hi HumanBing - I used to live & work in Hong Kong I can relate to the struggle with learning Cantonese & Mandarin. I got quite good at Cantonese after a while, but only what I would call about a level 2. I never got beyong insults and chat up lines in Mandarin (but useful for Firefly/Serenity roleplaying games).

One of the flaws of mediaeval RPG like D&D is the treatment of languages and writing. Literacy in the middle ages was rare. Even in more modern times (Regency/Victorian) large chunks of the population couldn't read or write. To make the system more realistic, you should also have to spend skill points to become literate in a language (excepting those that choose a literacy/education/ etc feat).

Some (learned) classes could have literacy in their starting languages for free however, e.g. clerics, paladins, wizards, monks. Druids could have written druidic a kin to written ogham. So immediate illiteracy would only be an issue for rangers, fighters and rogues. Bards might start illiterate, but learning to read and write costs less for them if they wished to learn.

But to make it less onerous for PCs to use up all their skills in learning to read Vaasi, Balok etc all separately, perhaps there are only a limited number of written languages.

For example southern core lands might use a cryllic script originating in Nova Vaasa. Tepest and Forfar might use ogham runes (druidic minus sacred words that only Druids know). The eastern domains (Mordentshire, Dementlieu, Lamordia, Richlieumont, Borca) might have another written language in common (an english style alphabet). Perhaps Darkon has a written language of its own (greek style characters?).

To used the Mandarin and Cantonese example, these are two different languages, but Chinese characters are read and understood by speakers of both languages (putting it simplistically bacause the simplified characters used in the PRC are different to traditional characters use in Taiwan etc). Some of the characters in Japanese are also shared / imported Chinese characters, so a Japanese tourist in Taiwan should be able to get the gist of shop signs etc). So whether you are in Kartakass or Barovia, if you can read the common written language, you can get by.

Deceipher script would help you to also get by if you were a stranger in a strange land.

To get around high illiteracy rates, shops etc in the middle ages would have signs depicting trades hanging outside of their windows, taverns would have paintings of their "names" rather than words. So if you can't read getting to that meeting with a potential employer at the "slaughtered lamb" tavern isn't a problem.

Just look for the painting of the lamb.



On a different note...Rotipher mentioned the problems of characters being limited because there's no overall common langauge. But, most Domains in the core do have several languages spoken. Most of the PCs in my current game speak passable Vaasi and/or High Mordentish, and so can get themselves understood in most domains. The only character who has a real problem in communication is the sole PC from Rokushima Taiyoo - but they have the "Gift of Languages" feat and have a high intelligence and so are picking up local languages quickly.

Clusters and islands become a problem, but I got around that by having Souragnian similar to High Mordentish, so speakers of that could at least get understood. The party's bard soon picked up fluency in the language and as the bard was the character with the best diplomacy/gather info, that character was the one that had the most interaction with the locals anyway.

The languages of the Frozen Reaches might be similar to Vassi or Balok(equivalent to the ranking in Vaasi minus two) etc. etc. Other clusters might have languages similar to Low Mordentish. Although the Amber Wastes should probably have it's own unique language (to make it more exotic).

In all, although there was an occassional glitch when playing my game using this system (when using a premade adventure and trying to get a clue from a local when the bard was occupied), intelligence rolls and charades got the characters by. Later a vistani NPC (who knew several languages - Vistani/Half-Vistani should perhaps have bonus language ranks equal to their INT modifier to reflect their wide travelling and have a smattering (1-2 ranks) in several langauges) acted as a tutor, translator and guide when entering a new domain.

I found this system helped to make characters entering Ravenloft feel more vulnerable and truely strangers in a strange land. It also makes each domain they enter initially that much more different, bewildering and challenging. It also takes longer for characters to really be integrated and converse freely with locals.

Although some may find the suggested langauge system a hinderance, it's probably much less of a problem than having a high outcast rating and I hope adds some realism.


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Post by Ronia Sun »

Perhaps we ought to pool resources among those who speak a second language. I'd love to implement more actual French as High Mordentish/Sourganese/etc, or be able to have some German phrases for places like Falkovnia.

I, too, know what it is like to struggle along trying to learn a second language, and I like these rules. (And if anyone wants stuff in Barovian--or is it Balok?--just ask me. I speak Romanian fluently now. :P )

I may have to use these rules in a future campaign. I fear my players would lynch me if I sprung this rule on them now... 8)
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Post by The Wannabe »

Wasn't there a mention somewhere of Balok being the default or common of Ravenloft, due to it being the first domain?

I'd say the rank system is great, I wonder though, does it logically follow that there would be language schools in the universities of Ravenloft? Formal programs in smaller domains? Exchange students to learn new languages, or field trips to study other cultures?

Taking this one step further, the adventure hooks. Perhaps a scholar of antiquities who needs material/information from Souragne or Sri Raji? Visiting professors, and what they might have brought with them? Special shipments from over-the-seas, and who the hell can read those directions anyway......surely this bit about "don't open at night" can't be important.....

Drakov would need interpreters for his invasion forces. Explorers needs guides and interpreters. And that's all before we hop over to MoTRD.....

OT, I quite enjoyed learning Mandarin.....mostly because I wanted to chat up my teacher.

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Post by Malus Black »

The Wannabe wrote:Wasn't there a mention somewhere of Balok being the default or common of Ravenloft, due to it being the first domain?
It's a common trade language, as most major trade routes in the Southwestern Core and between West and East run through Barovia (especially after the Grand Conjunction and the creation of the Shadow Rift), but it's not a universally known language like the common tongue of most campaign settings.
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Post by Rucht Lilavivat »

I like it. I like it alot.

Here's a question. If you are illiterate, how does one become "literate"? How many skill points would it take, etc.
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Post by The Wannabe »

One might assume that Player Characters are already special, and even the most basic of classes requires some level of training and/or education. So even if one is illiterate as their default, then it should only take one skill point to gain basic literacy. Its not like one is becoming even more special, is it?

Perhaps the skill rank levels apply to reading and writing as well as speaking? Otherwise, it would take far too many to have a decent grasp of even a few languages, methinks?

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Post by Ail »

I side with Rotipher in this. I find that 2 skill points to learn a language are far too much especially for those classes that don't have many skill points to play to. I couldn't read the whole thread in detail, but I think that it is putting too much emphasis on language difficulty. also, I don't agree with spending skill points for languages.
But given that that is the current implementation of it, what's wrong in giving certain DC for specific language tasks? That way, you could account for the effect of intelligence and the amount of study. Also, it would give something of randomness to the language. This is, you know specific parts of the language, even if you are fluent, but there may be things you just don't know how to say.

On another note, if you need help for languages, I can contribute for Portuguese, Spanish, French, English and Italian (the latter at a lower level than the others).

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Post by Jester of the FoS »

Unless skillpoints are raised across the board asking anyone to devote four full points to a skill is a little much. And that risks balance by giving extra skill points to classes who might rather spend it on other skills.

One option might be to remove languages from skills entirely. Have "language slots" or the like. A character might start out with 8 or so free 'slots' and choose to be fluent in two languges or one with a smattering of other tongues.

Related languages (Sourangeian and Mordentish) might be treated as one or two ranks lower or be cheaper to learn (as the basic grammer is already known).
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Post by doctor-evil »

The Wannabe wrote:One might assume that Player Characters are already special, and even the most basic of classes requires some level of training and/or education. So even if one is illiterate as their default, then it should only take one skill point to gain basic literacy. Its not like one is becoming even more special, is it?

Perhaps the skill rank levels apply to reading and writing as well as speaking? Otherwise, it would take far too many to have a decent grasp of even a few languages, methinks?

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Hmmm - having just one skill point to buy a language still makes it very easy to just pick up a language - if you think that even a basic 'o-level' in a language can take several years of classes/homework/tests etc and that's no where near fluent.

This doesn't take away from countries where inhabitants are exposed to multiple languages and so are pretty fluent when they would be of 'adventuring age'. For domains where inhabitants are exposed to multiple languages perhaps PCs could have more than one native language (which they learnt over years and years in childhood).

Literacy was very rare in the middle ages - many nobles, clergy and several European kings were functionally iliterate even. Literacy in the common man was extremely rare

If anyone watches/reads the Sharpe series of novels (which is probably set at about the upper end of the Ravenloft time period) Sharpe couldn't read until after being imprisoned with an officer, and his man Harris was really unusual being both literate and fluent in other languages (despite them all having spent years in Spain/Portugal and contacting the French).
this would probably be the standard for an averagefighter/warrior at the time. Probaly because they had so few skill points..........
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Post by Jester of the FoS »

Speak Languages is a cross-class skill for everyone but bards. It takes two skill points to learn.
For intelligence or skill-orientated classes (rogues, wizards) this isn't much of an expenditure but for fighters or barbarians who may only recieve three or four skillpoints each level it is quite restrictive.
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Post by Stygian Inquirer »

Rucht Lilavivat wrote:I like it. I like it alot.

Here's a question. If you are illiterate, how does one become "literate"? How many skill points would it take, etc.
There is always the Literacy feat from Heroes of Light.
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Post by Ail »

Jester of the FoS wrote:Unless skillpoints are raised across the board asking anyone to devote four full points to a skill is a little much. And that risks balance by giving extra skill points to classes who might rather spend it on other skills.

One option might be to remove languages from skills entirely. Have "language slots" or the like. A character might start out with 8 or so free 'slots' and choose to be fluent in two languges or one with a smattering of other tongues.

Related languages (Sourangeian and Mordentish) might be treated as one or two ranks lower or be cheaper to learn (as the basic grammer is already known).
I second this. I may be able to give language proficiency for my players if they spend enough time in a domain or if they role-play learning it irrespectively of skill points. I think the two shouldn't go together. However, I still think Int bonus should help in speaking a language and perhaps determine if one can learn more languages.
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