Binders and Pact Magic

[Carcer]

I'm thinking of adding pact magic to my Ravenloft game. In many ways I prefer the feel of pact magic to wizard magic because I think it's more appropriate to a horror setting.

Has any introduced Binders into their Ravenloft game? What worked? What didn't work? What did you have to change?

[Jasper]

The only thing I see tricky about Pact magic is that it needs a fiendish pressance to work. In Ravlenloft other then the handfull of cannon demons all contact with the other planes is cut off.

Now the DPs might subsitute something else in place of the fendish host but some tweeking is needed.

[Carcer]

My understanding is that the vestiges aren't demons and they don't actually physically manifest when summoned. But I do agree that a Ravenloft twist would be appropriate.

Even though a vestige is an illusion summoned from another plane perhaps it should have its own reality wrinkle. And I'm inclined to think that a natural roll of one on the binding check should mean that something else was summoned that might look like the vestige, but actually isn't (e.g. perhaps an actual fiend or some description). I also think that summoning and binding with a vestige which is on the more evil end of amorality should require a power check.

With Ravenloft being cut off from the other planes, I could imagine the Dark Powers stepping into grant the binder contact with their own twisted version of the vestiges from the Tome of Magic.

[Jasper]

You could tweek it so instead of pulling in the vestige to power his spells a pact mage in Ravenloft pulls in the very etherial essance of each domain.
Each domain would have a sort of taint that permiates the caster if caster fails his summoning ruitial that is attuned to that domain.

Taking from the power ruital list in COTN: Demons I have this-

Barovia-
Pressance: Slight obcuring mist swirls around the users feet at all times
Failure: Bright light becomes painfull to user and sunlight faital.

Borca-
Pressance: Any food or drnk the user touches turns bitter and unpalitable.
Failure: Users skin turns a sickly blue and suffers from one nonleathal posion of the DM cousing.

Darkon-
Pressance: User takes on the appearance of a living corpse (sunken skin, pale eyes, putred smell etc; )
Failure: User becomes a walking corpse for the 24 hour duration and takes on the Undead subtype.

Dementlieu-
Pressance: Users eyes become silvery and seems to swirl in the light.
Failure: User becomes tounge tied and unable to tell a sucessfull lie (-20 to all Bluff rolls)

Falkovina-
Pressance: Users body takes on the appearance of a well trained warrior (in appearance only, no acctual physical change).
Failure: User must make a will save at DC 20 at the smallest sight or become enranged.

Forlorn-
Pressance: The image of the user seems to move a split second after he acctuly moves.
Failure: User becomes unhinged in time and suffers a 2d4-4 penality to all inititive rolls for the duration.

Hazlan-
Pressance: The user crackles and glows with the pressance of magic
Failure: The user is unable to hold the emmence power and will randomly release a power every 1d6 turns.

Invidia-
Pressance: User takes on the smell of brimstone and looses his shadow for the duration.
Failure: User takes on very fiendish cast. Animals either flee from the user or try to attack him and plants wither at his touch.

Kartakass-
Pressance: Users voice takes on a malodic tone while his canine teeth enlongate.
Failure: User takes on a beastial form for the duration.

Lamordia-
Pressance: User no longer bleeds when wounded but dosn't heal normaly.
Failure: Users body becomes covered with surgical scars.

Mordent-
Pressance: Users body becomes pale and wisps of mist seems to trail him.
Failure: User becomes a 1st rank ghost for the duration.

Nova Vassa-
Pressance: Users face takes on a manical evil grin
Failure: User becomes manic and suffers a massive mood swing every 1d6 turns.

Richemulot-
Pressance: User reaks with the smell of the sewer.
Failure: User takes on a rodent like appearance.

Valchan-
Pressance: Users eyes glow with a yellow light and become slitted like a cats.
Failure: User takes on the appearance of a panther.

Verbek-
Pressance: Users teeth and claws enlongate.
Failure: User takes on the apperance of a man-wolf hybrid

[alhoon]

The only thing I see tricky about Pact magic is that it needs a fiendish pressance to work. In Ravlenloft other then the handfull of cannon demons all contact with the other planes is cut off.

If you play it by the book, even greater Deities cannot stop verges.They are beyond their control. So they are beyond control by the mists.

However the DP being the DP would certainly do something about binders in there. Except from the normal PChecks when they do bad things, they could very well interfere with the binding.

I would agree with the presence rules you propose from a different perpective (although I believe you need to tone them down a bit). When the vestige is within the character there is also "something more" in him than the vestige. Not interfering, but watching.
I disagree however with the failure rules. They are too harsh and failure carries its own risks in Ravenloft.

Rules I would propose:
- When a Binder is connected with a Vestige, the DP watch him more closely. +1% to fail a PCheck for each Vestige binded.
- The sings of the Vestige when visible, add a +1 to +3 to the OR of the binder.
- Rolls to expel a Vestige before its time, counts as minor betrayal and risks a Power check.
- Some powers have power checks associated with them. The chances should be small however.
- Clerics in Ravenloft feel a certain animosity against a Binder carrying a vestige. All clerics take their spells from the Dark Powers (even the good) so they are all affected by this effect as the Binder seems unatural, treacherous or disturbing to them.
+1 OR when dealing with Clerics in Ravenloft, even if they don't know someone is a binder or even that Binders exist.

[Mortavius]

I disagree with the idea of incurring a Powers Check everytime the Binder summons a Vestige. Vestiges aren't evil, and the act of summoning and binding one isn't evil either. Vestiges WANT to be bound. The only thing that I can think of that approaches this, is the idea of tampering with life forces, which does incur a Powers Check, but even that is tenuous.

As Alhoon said, failure on a Binding already carries a penalty. I see no need to add to that penalty. I also don't think I would add domain effects. Vestiges are carefully calculated at their levels for the abilities they grant for specific reasons.

What I would propose though, is that certain key characters from Ravenloft's history might become new Vestiges. Sergei von Zarovich? Radaga? Bakholis? Almost any former Darklord who was killed might qualify.

[Dion of the Fraternity]

I personally would not change the rules on binders in RL, but it would be appropriate for the setting of one would put cumulative OR on binders who begin to access more vestiges. Remember that they're not a particularly liked class--I suggest that for every 5 vestiges he could access, the binder gets +1 OR.

[Bloody Morgan]

I think I'd agree with upping the percentage of DP checks when calling on a vestige. Hubris is a ripe theme for gothic horror, calling on things so far beyond yourself could certainly be seen as a pathway to insanity or corruption. While the force in question may not be evil, it could lead to megalomania, superiority complexes or dependance - all things that the Dark Powers encourage.

Alterantly, you could rule that the act of summoning the vestige simply makes the DPs take additional notice of you, and the +1% simply represents them keeping a closer eye on all the normal stuff you do. The logical follow on from this is that Pact magic could have serious reprecussions for the stuff the demiplane is made from, but I'd leave that theory to someone who actually has the book.

I would point anyone interested in this to the recent Dragon which had an article about Pact Magic, and had Kaz the Destroyer as a sample Vestige. Complete with notes that he was last seen in a strange, misty realm, thought destroyed by his former master. Former Darklords as vestiges... that has potential.

[Irving the Meek]

Heh. Indeed. A Binder PC in my game has already invoked Vecna (a quickie swap with Acerak), and she's going to invoke Soth at some point...

I like Binders becuase they offer a glimpse of light from between the bars that are Ravenloft's prison. My feeling is that Vesitges break multiple rules by dint of their very existence, so they can't really be tinkered with or subjected to the DP's laws, especially if they're former Darklords. Of course, the converse is true - Vesitge have no power over the DP, and can offer no true escape from them. Still, it makes life interesting...

[Mortavius]

I think I'd agree with upping the percentage of DP checks when calling on a vestige. Hubris is a ripe theme for gothic horror, calling on things so far beyond yourself could certainly be seen as a pathway to insanity or corruption. While the force in question may not be evil, it could lead to megalomania, superiority complexes or dependance - all things that the Dark Powers encourage.
Alterantly, you could rule that the act of summoning the vestige simply makes the DPs take additional notice of you, and the +1% simply represents them keeping a closer eye on all the normal stuff you do.

Okay, but would you give a wizard a Dark Powers Check for casting a bunch of non-necromantic, non-evil spells? I do agree that hubris is a ripe theme for gothic horror, but it should only be punished when that hubris leads to commiting evil acts. In Ravenloft, there's no such thing as a thought crime. The Dark Powers punish evil acts, not evil notions. Only when those notions are carried out are they acted upon.

A fighter who beats every opponent he ever comes across could easily be consumed by megalomania as well. Would you punish the fighter with a Powers Check?

I don't believe the binding of a Vestige should warrant a check. Otherwise, the class soon becomes unplayable. How many people complained about the old Arcanist class, that had to made a check everytime he went up a level? You want to strike that delicate balance between acts that truly warrant a Powers Check and making the class a pain to play. Binding is a major function of the class; making a penalty everytime the players uses that ability quickly makes the class unappealing to play.

[Bloody Morgan]

Okay, but would you give a wizard a Dark Powers Check for casting a bunch of non-necromantic, non-evil spells?

Nope.

In Ravenloft, there's no such thing as a thought crime. The Dark Powers punish evil acts, not evil notions. Only when those notions are carried out are they acted upon.

Have to disagree there. I'd say that the Dark Powers are fully capable of reading thoughts, and engineering situations where you're likely to succumb to your darker urges. You wouldn't have to make a Powers check for a naughty thought, but there's other ways to be influenced.

A fighter who beats every opponent he ever comes across could easily be consumed by megalomania as well. Would you punish the fighter with a Powers Check?

Nope. See below.

I don't believe the binding of a Vestige should warrant a check.

Nor do I. What I was suggestiing was that should the PC do something which merits a check while acting under the aegis of a vestige would do so at +1%. The vestige itself does not cause checks.

Essentially, when you draw down a vestige you do something fundamentally odd to the nature of the demiplane. Doing so means that the DPs are paying you more attention than usual, so if you do anything which might merit them giving you a little push, they're more likely to go for it. I don't know why just yet, I just like the idea of the already interesting vestige magic having a lot more going on for it in Ravenloft.

Edit: I would however call for a Powers Check is the vestige being called down was Evil, such as the aforementioned Kaz.

Heh. Indeed. A Binder PC in my game has already invoked Vecna (a quickie swap with Acerak), and she's going to invoke Soth at some point...

Interesting ideas - have you written up rules for these two as vestiges?

[Rotipher of the FoS]

Characters from in-game legend might be appropriate, like Kulchek from Vistani folklore or that spirit who'd freed Life from Death's clutches in the Darkon creation-myth. So might the archetypes and Major Tarokka from the tarokka deck's imagery.

Important "false history" characters from the various domains could make for interesting vestiges (or Dark Power-created fake vestiges that binders can draw power from, on par with Zhakata's clergy getting their spells from a made-up god), as well. The Silver and Crimson Hawks of Falkovnian myth, for example, could constitute a single battle-themed vestige, their presence appearing as red and silver raptors engaged in a perpetual dogfight, continuously diving and clawing at each other.

For more historically-based vestiges, the Alchemist from I10 could be an intriguing one to develop. And some enigmatic, creepy figures like the Bloody Cobbler (or heck, even Madame Eva herself!) are practically vestiges already.

[Hell_Born]

I tried asking this in a topic of my own creation, because I think it's different to what's being pursued here, but they locked my topic and told me to come here. Anyway, my question is this: do you think that any of the material from Tome of Magic is usable in Ravenloft and, if so, what material do you consider usable and how would you recommend using it?

I'm particularly interested on hearing your opinions on the various monsters depicted in the Tome; I've been considering a spell that allows you to summon a Deadly Dancer and attempt to negotiate with it, much in the manner of Planar Binding. I'd like to hear your opinion on this and your recommendations for how to handle it, ruleswise.

[doctor-evil]

Oooh - I like the idea of the major arcana of the tarokka deck being vestiges.

That's something I know a couple of my players would be interested in, and would give me a chance to bring out the tarroka deck prop again.

[doctor-evil]

I so liked the idea of the major arcana of a tarokka deck being vestiges, here's the first few tarokka vestiges I worked out for a new first level binder NPC in my current campaign.

I tried to sort out the tarokka deck so that that there were two, ideally opposing or differeing cards for each level (although 6th & 7th level only have one card each).

Instead of a seal as such, I have the binder placing a tarokka card in the center of a hermetic circle they enscribe (on the ground, or on a table top).

So far I've only done three vesitges (the newbie binder won't need other vestiges for a while yet). I haven't bothered with a history of the vestige - they just exist. How they came to be is unknown.

Anyway, any comments or suggested powers for other vestiges appreciated...

The Innocent (1st level) Binding DC 15
Manifestation: After the tarokka card is placed within a hermetic circle, the sky seems to lighten, bluebirds fly up from the center of the card and circle around the binders head singing, and rose petals billow out from the card swirling around the binder.
Sign: When a binder makes a pact with the Innocent, their eyes widen as if in surprise, they continuously host a faint smile on their face and have a slight perfume of rose petals. Someone making a listen check (DC16) can here the faint sound faint sound of bluebirds singing whenever they are present.
Influence: The binder’s looks upon the world with innocent surprise and find it hard to think ill of anyone. They have a -2 penalty to sense motive rolls.
Special requirement: The binder must not do anything that might require a powers check whilst binding the Innocent.
Luck of the innocent: The binder can call on a luck bonus equal to their cha modifier for a single Fortitude, Reflex or Will save verses spells or supernatural abilities as an immediate action. Once you have used this ability you cannot do so again for 5 rounds.
Innocent charm: Due to your open and trustworthy demeanor, you gain a +2 bonus on Gather Information, Diplomacy, Handle animal and Wild empathy rolls.
Innocent face: The binder’s face looks plain and nondescript, allowing them to blend in with a crowd. This gives the binder a +10 bonus on disguise checks against those trying to seek them out.

Evoke mercy: The air of innocence cloaking the binder invokes merciful feelings and second thoughts in a would-be attacker. The binder can cast sanctuary as an immediate action. Once you have used this ability you cannot do so again for 5 rounds.


The Temptress (1st level) Binding DC 16
Manifestation: After the tarokka card is placed within a hermetic circle, a nubile, barely clad woman rises from the center of the card. She then proceeds to sway and dance in a sultry manner before the summoner, winks at them, blows kiss then slowly she licks her lips.
Sign: When a binder makes a pact with the Temptress, they instinctively loosen and modify their clothing as much as feasible exposing a swath of bare chest, cleavage or thigh. The binder talks in a breathy voice, dripping with honey, and they adopt movements are sinuous, slow and provocative.
Influence: The binder’s libido escalates, as the vestige’s influence acts like an aphrodisiac. Morals and propriety are put on the back shelf, as the binder’s innermost lusts boil to the surface.
Granted Abilities: As the temptress’ name suggests, she grants power to tempt and beguile.
Seductive: You gain a +4 bonus to Bluff and Sense motive checks with the opposite sex.
Alluring: You can cast charm person as a supernatural ability. Once you have used this ability you cannot do so again for 5 rounds. If the binder already has the ability to cast charm person (e.g. as a spell or supernatural ability) any charm spells cast are at +1 to the save DC and their duration is extended by 50%.
Silver tongue: You can take 10 on a bluff or diplomacy check even if distracted. You can make a rushed diplomacy check as a standard action with no penalty (normal: rushed diplomacy check is a full round action and accrues a penalty of -10) (see Naberius entry, Tome of Magic p 42).
Increased stamina: You gain endurance as a bonus feat while as a result of a pact with the Temptress.

The Marrionnette (2nd level) Binding DC 17
Manifestation: After the tarokka card is placed within a hermetic circle, blood red strings that glisten like fleshy tendons shoot down from the sky into the center of the card attaching to the limbs of the marionette image on the card. As the strings tighten, they pull the image from the surface of the card until it becomes a three dimensional figure. The marionette is wooden and dressed in jester’s motley or a clown outfit, but it’s features bear an uncanny resemblance to the binder, The marionette then dances a jig, puts it’s hand behind its back and produces a straight razor that it slashes towards the binder (missing) then uses to sever its strings.
Sign: The binder walks and moves in a jerky fashion, lifting their hands and legs slightly to high in the air, as if they were being manipulated by strings like a marionette.
Influence: The binder becomes a retentive, control freak, displaying obsessive compulsive behaviour and a need to organize and control the entire party and allies.
Granted Abilities: The marionette grants abilities which allow the binder to control the actions and movements of others.
Voice of command: You can give a verbal command to a target within 30’, that acts as if it were a command spell. This ability is a swift action.
Master manipulator: the binder can cast suggestion as a supernatural ability. Once you have used this ability you cannot do so again for 5 rounds.
Holding the strings: the binder can cast hold person as a supernatural ability. Once you have used this ability you cannot do so again for 5 rounds.
Wooden heart: due to the marrionette’s wooden heart and lack of empathy, the binder gains a +4 bonus against horror saves and a +2 bonus against enchantment spells.
The Artifact (2ndlevel) Binding DC 18

The Broken One (3rd level)
The Raven (3nd level)

The Hero (4th level)
The Horseman (4th level)

The Mists (5th level)
The Spirit (5th level)

The Beast (6th level)
The Hangman (6th level)

The Prison (7th level)

The Darklord (8th level)