To Retcon or Not Retcon: That is the Question

[ScS of the Fraternity]

With the fall of White Wolf's Ravenloft licence and the ominous approach of Expedition to Castle Ravenloft, it is a time for some serious reflection on the setting we love so well.

I met Ravenloft long ago in the stone age of roleplaying, back in 2nd editon - when men were men, and a high AC was the worst thing in the world. Back in those days, there was no shortage of settings, but Ravenloft seemed to have the most appeal. There were some little things that made it so much more interesting.
The horror angle was definitly a big part. There was something neat about a world where even the hardest bit warrior feared the night. Also, that werewolves were actually tough and vampires actually drank blood were pretty kwel features too.
Traditional D&D lacked a lot of that kind of thing.

What was really special was the old Weekend in hell scenario. Ravenloft was the scourage of many a gaming table:
Brave knights of Krynn will quiver,
and sorcerers of Planescape swoon,
when the mists of Ravenloft rise
beneath the bright full moon.
There wasn't a gaming table west of the rio grande that didn't have a story of what happened when they were dumped uncerimoniously into the 'Loft. Ravenloft was more than a setting - it was a shared experience - a standard against which everyone could be measured.

The hammer style horror might have got my interest, but I think what kept me hooked was the Freedom. [Yeah, that's right, capital F. that's just how free it is.]
Settings like Forgotten Realms and Dragon Lance had huge histories to them. Every nook, cranny and corner was full stated and annoted. You couldn't toss a rock in a street without hitting a 20th level character in the head, and subsequently getting your ass kicked. These settings were worse than just big and complicated: they were intimidating.
There was a definite image, wrong though it might have been, that the only way to play int he Realms was to be a hard core fan and know all the special trivial bits. There didn't seem to be room for imagination, let alone a novice DM. That paper screen is a poor defence against a snickering player. [Snort! Everyone knows that Drizzit has scimitars, not katanas. What are you, stupid?]

Ravenloft, on the otherhand, was special. It was a huge misty world, mostly undiscovered. Back in the boxed sets, the lands themselves were thinly detailed and offered anyone free reign to flesh them out. The book was really more like a tease - just a taste of the world and you were left to make the recipe.
Flash forward a few years - and the kitchen has been busy.
The 'Loft has become extremely well developed. There are countless histories and NPCs, curses and hearses, creature stats and vampire bats. The theme itself has changed significantly, too. The idea of a weekend in hell is mostly forgotten. The setting has such a rich herritage, that the local heroes seem to outweigh the outlanders 100 to 1.
The land has become a lot brighter - thanks to the meddling of Team Van Richten.
Its also moved a far distance from primative Barovia, with its medievalism. Now the setting seems to focus most strongly on advanced domains, where people where tricorner hats and carry pistols. Forget the domain system - now there are reality wrinkles, obliettes of terror, dreamspheres, mistways, and everywhich way but lose.
The setting has become so developed, its lands so detailed, and the world taken on so many rules unique to itelf, that Ravenloft has become... intimidating.

The setting is comming to a 180, from what once made it special to what drove me away from other settings. I don't think I'm alone in this opinion. Certainly Ravenloft has lost some of its shared experience over the years. The setting has been mostly lost to the mainstream gamer. And with its new convolutions and complications, its unlikeyl to draw new DMs into its web.
This new Expedition to Castle Ravenloft might just be the thing it needs to expand its customer base and reclaim its lost heritage of the cosmic bane of the gaming table. So perhaps this is a good time to consider simplifying the setting and getting back to basics.
Sadly, Ravenloft has no major plot leading up to it at the moment, and it is certainly the wrong time to try to create one suddenly. After all, the only thing worse than a complicated setting, is a complicated setting in the middle of a huge climactic story arc.

So perhaps retconning is the way to go. What about a clean sweep to make room for the future?

[HuManBing]

I hesitate to retcon everything. White Wolf's initial contributions were mixed in quality, but the Gazetteers came along and pretty much lifted the whole setting to a new level entirely.

I also joined Ravenloft in its first campaign settings product, the Black Box of 1990 (TM), and I didn't particularly like the developments occurring after the Grand Conjunction. Personally, my favorite time to set the campaign is in 735 or so, when Gundarak is still around.

Some developments are welcome, though. I like the Shadow Rift, and the idea of removing the Nightmare Lands from the Core. I pull the Eternal Order further forward in time, to have its roots at about 735 or so. I prefer the White Wolf "comprehensive living world" approach rather than the 1990s "weekend in hell" approach that most 2nd ed. adventures either assumed or make heavy provisions for.

Vecna and Kas were a big mistake, in my opinion. However, I also believe that the campaign setting lacks real challenges for epic level characters. I wonder if we could put low-level domain lords to challenge beginner players, and pump up Azalin, Strahd, and others to epic level to put the fear of the Dark Powers into epic PCs.

Oh yes, and Soth will always be the rightful darklord of Sithicus!

[Igor the Henchman]

This is one of the delectable few moments where I totally agree with ScS. Simplifying and returning back to the basics is decidedly the way to go. If 3E's motto was "back to the dungeon!" RL's next incarnation should look back to the Weekend in Hell tradition. Its what started the setting, after all.

[Joël of the FoS]

This is one of the delectable few moments where I totally agree with ScS. Simplifying and returning back to the basics is decidedly the way to go. If 3E's motto was "back to the dungeon!" RL's next incarnation should look back to the Weekend in Hell tradition. Its what started the setting, after all.

I think a Weekend in Hell guide is needed, indeed. Let's benefit from the EtCR wave.

This would bring more people to the "whole" setting, IMHO.

Joël

[alhoon]

Wooow! Wait there!

Nobody forces you to memorize the 5 gazs and play by every rule of the setting. And not even the most fanatic vampire DM needs to include all the vampire variants there.
It is a complete waste of so many bright ideas to just sweep away the mistways, the reality wrinkles, the VRGttMist etc.

No... They are what makes Ravenloft special. A misty world that is almost undiscovered... and richly detailed. Special rules for spells, ways to travel to the far side of the world within a few hours. Entities from Hell and Heaven that actually warp the rules of reality around them.

Also why do you think the Weekend in hell is more or less obselette these days? Because people prefer playing native heroes.

[Jasper]

I hated the weekend in hell setting. Yes House of Strahd has a vast well written background for both Barovia and Strahd but since all the PC want to do in the weekend in hell senario is find and off ole fang face you don't even realy need to give him a name.

No matter what Darklord or big bad ravenloft monster you sent them after it didn't feel like it had any cohersion. It didn't feel like Ravenloft.

With the comming of the black and red boxes Ravenloft finaly gave the PC a reson to care. Its one thing to have a PC go after Strahd because there on a vampire killing kick, it much better RP and much more fulling to have PC whoes family have given a daughter each generation to feed Strahds lust and now has the strength and tools to end the cycle.

[Rotipher of the FoS]

There might be a way to split the difference, IMHO. I agree that it'd be a good thing to expand upon EtCR with material that draws in new, 3E-bred fans, "Weekend"-style. However, brushing aside the legacy of the grand story arcs of the later 2E products, and the phenomenal depth of the Gazes and netbooks, would be alienating to those who prefer such elaboration and completeness in their game-settings.

Instead, why not take advantage of the fact that EtCR is set (to judge by the "Ireena" reference) in 528, before the Core emerged? What if, rather than chuck the 8th century material, we develop an alternate time-frame for Ravenloft games to be set in: one which is eminently suitable for WiH play, because it pre-dates the post-medieval domains' appearance and concentrates on isolated Islands, not interdomain politics?

Perhaps the domains we know arose in the 6th century -- Mordent, Darkon, old Zherisia, etc -- were just the tip of the iceberg. The DPs could have created dozens of short-lived Islands back then -- ideal WiH environments -- of which only a tiny fraction survived longer than a few years. PCs could eliminate some of them by killing petty darklords; others might have vanished due to DP housecleaning and/or villainous infighting. There's actually no way to prove such extra domains didn't exist, in the current 8th century products -- if a domain vanishes, nothing is generally left to prove it'd been there, and historical record-keeping and scholarship in Ravenloft didn't really kick off until the rise of Dementlieu and so forth -- so DMs can concoct one-shot Islands for the 6th century to their hearts' content, without having to contravene the established post-500s history of the game-setting.

This would satisfy ScS's desire for grittier, Weekend-style material and is a better fit for EtCR -- players of which, after all, probably won't want to have to jump their PCs 240 years into the future, to follow up the Strahd adventure with more Ravenloft -- as it'd be set in the same century as the original I6 and its 3E reincarnation. Conversely, long-time RL-buffs who like the Arthaus-era Core won't be displaced from the fanbase -- in fact, they could loot the 6th-century domains for ideas, having relics of long-vanished Islands pop up in their 8th century campaigns -- and the more-complex Ravenloft we've gotten used to would still be there, for those newbies who'd like to take the plunge and try an all-Ravenloft game.

[Archedius]

No offense but I don't see the point in retconning everything. The gazs made the setting detailed enough for when you want or need the continuity yet open enough to do whatever the hell you want to with the domains. I have to say that RL is nowhere near FR's inflexability. ScS, I mean no offense to you but I hope the Frat does not by and large agree with you- I like my details and want more gazs made just like the Sourange document.

[Dion of the Fraternity]

I guess its time for Ravenloft to return to its much more simple roots, preferrably the roots that don't have a gigantic, ornate, gnarly metaplot.

I agree with ScS on many points, but all it points down to is that Ravenloft has in a way lost its "classicness." Ravenloft has nothing significant going on in its history at the moment, and perhaps it's time to shake things up a bit by simplifying it.

Me for retcon.

[Joël of the FoS]

ScS, I mean no offense to you but I hope the Frat does not by and large agree with you- I like my details and want more gazs made just like the Sourange document.

FYI, ScS (and Dion) didn't express the FoS' point if view, but only their own valid views and questioning.

---

Yes, the more I think of it, the more a Guide to WiH would be appropriate, in order to introduce more people to the setting quickly. Some kind of "Ravenloft lite" (or Ravenloft 528), perhaps set in early times, as Rotifer wisely suggested. With a simpler medieval core, and a few islands (perhaps only those domains mentionned in the novels to maximise the fact the novels are re-released). Add adventure hooks (or references to 2e stuff going well with this RL lite) to keep them in, and to let them out, and here you go, WiH.

This Ravenloft 528 is perhaps the best way to introduce DMs and players to the well detailed setting Ravenloft has becomes, with EtCR soon released. But we're probably late for this project already.

---

On the other hand, I'd never throw away what was done in 3e. My campaign is set firmly in this era, as many other DM's, and I think this version of RL is well detailed, great and compares well to other settings. But that's just my opinion too

Joël

[Jester of the FoS]

Retconning is unnecassary. While it would be nice to clear off the slate and start fresh so we can write our own darklord origins and ignore all the errors and goofs and silliness of 2nd Edition we'd lose so much.

Rather, I think a guide to newbies is a good idea. I might make it broader than just a book on Weekends in Hell, although that should be a large part.
Player's Guide to Ravenloft or Newcomer's Guide to Raveloft might be the best titles.
We can detail all the basics, all the 'big' FAQ questions and styles of play.

[doctor-evil]

I do like Joel's Ravenloft Lite idea, as a prequel to the larger setting - with perhaps Mordentshire (in case WOTC do an 'Expedition to Gryphon Hill') island, and a couple of others, as a way to introduce new players to the setting.

It would be relatively easy for players who wanted to expand into the larger world to walk into the mists and shazam! they're in a new land they didn't relise existed beyond the misty borders of Barovia, and the world seemed to have aged a few hundred years with unusual fashions, strange exploding stick things, and the NPCs they knew before dead and buried in the ground.

Or vice versa, you could do an interesting adventure foiling a plot by Stradh in the present by magically going back in time via a ritual and combating a less powerful Stradh in the past (in the Ravenloft Lite setting) and stealing an important magic item etc... basically using the premise used in the Terminator or Timecop movies - just don't accidentally bump into your great-grand mother, or even worse, sleep with her [as in the BBC's 'Flipside of Dominic Hyde'].

[Igor the Henchman]

To clarify my own point of view a bit, while I agree that retconning the setting is not at all necessary (although I don't feel it would be a bad thing either), I agree with ScS's point that the setting has become so well defined that it hit something of a dead end. Now that the Core and its dinizens are detailed completely, and internal consistency has been achieved, I dare suggest it wouldn't be bad for the pendulum to swing backwards, towards the elements of classic D&D, the Weekend in Hell tradition, and the creation of new Islands of Terror.

Although I love what Ravenloft has become during its 3E development, I also see a few symptoms that give me reason to worry the fans and authors are, little-by-little, pushing the setting far from its original roots - D&D adventuring with a Gothic Horror flavor. I've read netbook articles suggesting demihumans should be less prevalent, even in Darkon. I saw forum threads suggesting dragons somehow aren't appropriate monsters for Ravenloft adventures. Someone periodically suggests to convert the setting to the Storyteller system. This all makes me wonder whether we haven't strayed too far from the original Black Box concept, which has elven archers and axe-wielding dwarves kicking the front door of Castle Ravenloft and confronting its master. And I certainly agree with ScS that Expedition to Castle Ravenloft might be the perfect opportunity to catch back some of that old flavor.

[alhoon]

This all makes me wonder whether we haven't strayed too far from the original Black Box concept, which has elven archers and axe-wielding dwarves kicking the front door of Castle Ravenloft and confronting its master. And I certainly agree with ScS that Expedition to Castle Ravenloft might be the perfect opportunity to catch back some of that old flavor.

As someone who runs a campaign in Ravenloft where the party fights dragons and fire giants along with vampires, ghosts, walking dead etc I say that I like the Setting as it is.

Do you want a weekend in hell? Go make an island of terror 20 by 20 miles with a village of 600 people and 2 hamlets of 200 people, a darklord and some dark secrets going on.
Then have the darklord close the borders a few minutes after the mists deposit the PCs in...
Your PCs can very well be the dwarf fighter, the human cleric, the halfling rogue and then elven wizard. The villagers will look them quizzicaly as they stop there to rest before they go to bang at the door of the Evil wizard's castle after they slay the dragon that guards the entrance.


Why have we to forget Toben the Many, Telling man, S and so many wonderful villains?
Alanik Ray, The weathermay twins and the other good guys?

[Hallow]

I know it's a tad illrelevent.. but i must...

[Snort! Everyone knows that Drizzit has scimitars, not katanas. What are you, stupid?]

His name is DRIZZT Third son of Matron Malice of Daermon N'a'shezbaernon Ninth house of Menzoberranzan. Trained by Zaknafein and Mooshie.