4e Ravenloft Conversion Thread

[Isabella]

But dragon-men... Baduin9 likely has the best idea, keeping the racial stats but making them much, much more human. But the yuan-ti already fill the role of serpent men so it's a tad redundant unless one ties the dragonborn into them (which might work, possibly making them an addition to Sri Raji).

Well, check out the new nagas in the monster manual. The guardian has thunder blasts, the primordial breathes ice and fire... that covers all the dragonborn breath weapons except for acid, which could easily be reflavored as spitting poison with the exact same mechanics. So they might be connected to the yuan ti, or maybe they went to the source and have naga blood in them.

But there are many other ways they could come into being - eldrich experiments a la the broken ones, outlanders, or even just always having been there, like the draconian idea for Sithicus.

And don't forget the deep one parallel Doc brought up. Maybe they start out looking human and get more and more lizardy as they get older. After all, fish men and squid men don't look very good on paper either, but they're now staples of horror. And is a snake man really that different from a dragon man?

We do understand most people don't want them. So moving on to something else, I believe Van Richten ought to be a Warlord, unfortunate class name aside. I don't really want to stat up all the various iterations of his character, though.

How about this food for thought: Elves. People love them, people hate them, and now there's two of them - mystical eladrin and foresty elves. They're both fey, so no splitting them up that way, but which type do you think should be native to what domains? Sithicus and Falkovnia probably have just plain elves - paranoid wood creatures that don't take kindly to trespassers and dart about in the trees with their bows at the ready. Places like Tepest probably have eladrin, who easily dodge the Inquisition with their powers. Darkon and Dementlieu probably have both; Darkon has everything (but I think they'd have significantly more eladrin), and Dementlieu has immigrants from all over the Core. What about other domains, like Valachan?

What about established NPCs, like Alanik Ray? I'm leaning towards the Great Detective being an eladrin, myself.

Do you think the eladrin should have any kind of connection with the Shadowfey? There's another food for thought idea - shadow fey. The Shadowrift seems like a cross between the new Fey Wild and Shadowfell.

[Jester of the FoS]

Darkonian elves are elves. Their mundane woodsfolk.
Sithican elves are eladrin. They're magical and unearthly. The woods of Sithicus themselves overlap with the Ravenloft version of the Feywild (aka Faerie) which plays with time and misleads travelers.

[Isabella]

I never really got the impression that elves were meant to be mundane. Ignoring flavor for the moment, the main difference between elves and eladrin was that one teleports and one's a crack shot.
Or, as our group described it, elves are wood elves. Eladrin are high elves.

Obviously, that leaves a lot of leeway and overlap.

So I imagined the Sithican elves being more feral like wood elves; fey and otherworldly, sure, but they're main MO seems to be putting arrows in your chest. I'll concede the point on Darkon, though, but they still probably have both.

Resetting Alanik Ray to elf rather than eladrin.

No thoughts on Warforged vs. Adam's Children?

[Mortavius]

On Dragonborn,

I still don't think I would allow Dragonborn as native characters...except in extreme circumstances where the player comes up with a great story to explain it. I like the stories that have come up, but they don't fully convince me. I hear what's being said when it's said crafting the campaign around the system, but that's been done before. Ravenloft has always broken rules or changed things in the name of flavor. Not that I agree with it, but originally, there were no Bards, Druids, or Paladins native to Ravenloft, though you could still play an Outlander one. I'm just trying to illustrate that there's precident here.

I dunno...changing the look of the Dragonborn to make them more human so they fit in also changes the race. The way I see it, if I play a Dragonborn in D&D, it's because I want to play a big powerful Dragon-Man that has a breath weapon. If I'm suddenly told that my dragon-man looks a lot more human now, I might be okay with that. On the other hand, I might lose all interest in playing the character. And it's a legitimate complaint, I think.

Warforged: I like the idea of including them more, but sparingly, and almost as unique individuals. No creation forges in Ravenloft, please. As to what Adam would think, I would say it would depend on the actions of the Warforged in question. Adam would broke no threat to himself or Mordenheim. If the Warforged just wanted to live in isolation and peace, then Adam would probably leave it alone, like the golems in the Monastery. If on the other hand, the golem was able to *somehow* integrate into Lamordian society, I'm sure Adam would fly into a jealous rage and destroy the construct.

Elves & Eladrin: To me, in Ravenloft, these would both be called Elves by most people. Eladrin themselves might call themselves Eladrin, some ancient name that they don't expect humans to understand, and those elves who forsake their ancient heritage could be considered to be abandoning the name as well and simply be called "elves" as humans call them. I feel however that Sithican elves would be Eladrin; they exhibit a great fallen grandeur from an ancient society. Remember, just because they're Eladrin doesn't mean they don't make great Rangers. Darkonian elves on the other hand, to me would be just elves; the Sithicans would view them as having no ancient ties to their race, seeing in that they have integrated so much with the humans.

[Isabella]

Not that I agree with it, but originally, there were no Bards, Druids, or Paladins native to Ravenloft, though you could still play an Outlander one. I'm just trying to illustrate that there's precedent here.

And then they changed it to put all those classes back in.
In 2e every published product said you couldn't ever play as an evil character.
And you certainly couldn't play a monster, until the rules got made that let you play a monster.

We are just trying to add options, help people visualize what a Ravenloft Dragonborn would look like, or add ways to include them that doesn't involve warping all of Hazlan (or even just one of Hazlan's cities, which would let you keep the Mulani and make the dragonborn semi-normal). We are not WotC. We don't get to publish cannon Ravenloft. If you don't like dragonborn, by all means leave them out. If you want your dragonborn to be human or lizardy, by all means pick what you prefer.

Now, continuing in the vein of trying to say "yes" as much as possible, here's some major sticking points I've been mulling over: Iconic Ravenloft rules that don't really seem to work in 4e, be it due to the fact the rules would be overcomplicated or unclear or otherwise go against 4e's design philosophy. If it comes right down to it, I'd prefer to leave 4e intact more than Ravenloft's rules - things stagnate if they don't change, after all. But I know a lots of people want them back, so there's no reason not to try and solve the problems.

Vampires

No, they don't explode in sunlight anymore unless they're piddly little minions. Not that I blame WotC for taking that out; it was a weakness that either would not conceivably come up or was the point of the entire encounter... with the occasional clever PC exception (I heard a story where a PC sucked the mist form vampire into a pair of bellows and dumped it outside; not the most rules friendly solution but still awesome). So us Ravenlofters are either just going to have to accept that Strahd and Jander Sunstar can just prance about in the sunlight as they like now, or come up with another solution.

Proposed Solution

If you want your vampire to explode in sunlight, just say it explodes in sunlight.
As I said before, that weakness is usually either pointless or the entire point, so you might as well just do it as you like.
If you don't like the thought of the mighty Strahd blowing up after a round of sunshine, you could either say that vampires exposed to sunlight take the same penalties as if had not rested in its coffin, or that sunlight does 10 damage per round when exposed to sunlight. The problem with that being that it plays all sorts of havoc with its level, but that's probably what you wanted.

Lycanthropes

Let me just say right now, I love the new diseases that replaced lycanthropy. I have yet to play in a game where, after a fight with a lycanthrope, the GM has not rolled his eyes and said "no, you're not infected." It either derails the campaign, derails the character, or puts one character in the spotlight by virtue of him being a huge problem/troublemaker.
That being said, the curse of the werebeast is one of the classic horror stories, and just because not every werebeast can infect you, the GM and player might want to explore that particular avenue of horror.

Proposed Solution

The change shape ability between the hybrid seems mostly cosmetic. Alternatively, if the player does not have any racial based feats, the race could change to one of the shifter races in the back of the monster manual.

Dread Dopplegangers

There doesn't seem to be any more mind reading magic. It had too nebulous a mechanical effect, my guess. Which means Dread Dopplegangers seem to have lost their main shtick.

Proposed Solution

Either leave the dopplegangers as the normal ones, of give them a new iconic power like the lycanthropes now have.

Reality Wrinkles

If you thought they were confusing in 3e, what will you do now? There's no more outsider type that can easily cover all the creatures that get reality wrinkles. There's no brand of "darklord" powers that the reality wrinkles could cut off. There's no easy mechanics to describe what a reality wrinkle even does.

Proposed Solution

I have no idea. I suspect if anything ought to remain in the realm of GM fiat, this is it.

[Mortavius]

Well, in a way, Reality Wrinkles are simple...Demons & Devils have them, as well as Angels. Done. We can go back the VR's Guide to Fiends to determine effects and radius.

As for the Dragonborn, I'm perfectly aware that I, as a DM, can say no. What I'm looking for is a solution that really fits within the setting. So far, the ones I have seen are great if I want my players to fight a Dragonborn, but not so hot if I want my players to play one.

I'm all for fitting things into Ravenloft; anyone who doesn't believe me just has to look at some of the articles I've written for the Quoth the Raven and BoS___ netbooks, where I try and fit existing generic D&D things into the setting and find a logical place for them. But as said, I'm having a really tough time with the Dragonborn as they are presented in the PHB. And I feel if I change something too much, as in the looks of the Dragonborn, then I'm not fitting it into the setting, I'm simply changing it until it's *easier* to fit into the setting. I find the challenge is in trying to find a place for something in Ravenloft, because usually that search opens so many doors that you can use for running games in the setting. It's a very refreshing past-time, I've found.

[Isabella]

I think that's where you lost me. If you had just rejected them in any form because you didn't find them remotely gothic or scary...


raaaaaaaar

....I couldn't argue. The above doesn't really frighten me (and not for lack of trying, believe you me ).
but I spent the effort to draw it and could hardly let it go to waste NOW

But once they're in the setting, I'm not sure what's preventing them from being played. I'm especially confused since some of those little fictions were meant to character concepts in of themselves: dragonborn that fight alongside Gondegal and the Spawn of the Lizard against Drakov's tyranny, "servants of Banemaw" in Nidalia who are persecuted by Elana Faithhold's armies, seeking sanctuary with the Knights of the Shadow, "Draconians" in the forest of Sithicus who just want to be left alone and make a life for themselves, magical experiments on the run from their insane creators, shamans who made one too many deals with the loa, naga-blooded creatures from Shri Raji, etc. Or is the problem still that they can't walk about town very easily? It's an obstacle, sure, but not an insurmountable one, I feel.

-The "Plausible Deniability" Solution

William openly stared. He had expected the band of mercenaries to be an odd lot but... the armored man in the back was huge. The black plate mail clanked as he thudded inside, and the helmet, forged into the effigy of a snarling beast, seemed to be glaring at him.

"Vhat are you looking at?" the armored figure demanded. William quickly averted his eyes.

"N-n-nothing," the barkeep stuttered. "And you know how much I appreciate this. You're just a little-"

"Large, yes." The armored figure regarded William for a minute, then issued a short noise that might have been a laugh. "So I have been told. I am ektually not that large, vhere I come from." One of the other mercenaries snickered.

"W-well, I apologize," William said, starting to relax now that it was apparent the man wouldn't stave his head in. "Please, sit down, relax, I'll get you something to eat."

The huge man snorted. "I do not relax vhen I am vorking. Kristie vill bring it by my room later." With that, the huge man thudded upstairs.

"Don't mind Ludvigg, my good man," one of the human mercenaries said, clapping him on the shoulder. "Poor man's Falkovnian."

Oh, William thought. That certainly explained a lot.

-The "Masque of the Red Death" Solution
I.e., Taking a page from that campaign setting, where all monsters had a glamor that disguised them as human. Or even just being generous as a DM and giving them a hat of disguise.

-The Comic Book solution

What I mean by that is, every ancient superstition and legend always happens to be true, and eventually even the densest of "educated folk" starts to realize how dumb they look when they say "superstitious balderdash!" and are almost immediately set upon by a mummy or something. Obviously, this requires a certain view of Ravenloft, but once you've hit that point, almost anything can walk around the Renaissance domains without getting itself strung up.

Why? Because while superstitions tend to be rooted in truth, the "cultured" folk know that the creatures those silly backwater peasants are so afraid of are no threat to a rational, civilized man; there's nothing inherently malevolent about them, and should one attack, they are easily dispatched with superior technology and research. All this hysteria over Rakshasa and talking beasts and whatnot is just the result of their primitive cultures clashing, and we enlightened folk have nothing to fear from primitives:

"By Ezra," Pierre du Motier exclaimed, nearly dropping his wine glass. "Madame Lafayette certainly does her best to top herself every year. Is that truly a serpent man of Hazlan attending?"

The ladies about him tittered at his amazement, and Jean-Luc Marat stifled a laugh. "No need to goggle, M. Motier."

"It's just such a rare novelty, for myself, at least," M. Motier replied. "Are they reasonable creatures?"

"I believe scholars are still undecided on that point, Monsieur," the creature hissed. Motier flushed slightly as all the other nobles laughed.

[DocBeard]

Argument aside, that's some solid fiction work. Nicely done! I cracked up at the Falkovnian thing. Man, I've gotta remember to use that to explain Lia's moods one of these days.

[alhoon]

VampiresI heard a story where a PC sucked the mist form vampire into a pair of bellows and dumped it outside; not the most rules friendly solution but still awesome

It was from a book of Salvatore. The fifth book of the Cleric Quintet.

I have to say that I agree with the format here like:

Problem: blah blah blah.

Proposed solution: blah blah blah.

[Nikolas of the Mists]

I have to say that I agree with the format here like:

Problem: blah blah blah.

Proposed solution: blah blah blah.

Indeed, I believe so long as the thread doesn't get derailed by possible OT items, this is the format to attempt to adhere to.

And now a glimpse of my first endeavors for 4e Ravenloft.
Presenting the Half-Vistani
(Comments welcome, especially on Tribe Skills)



Racial Traits
Average Height: 5’4” to 6’0”
Average Weight: 130-200lbs

Ability Scores: +2 Wisdom, +2 Charisma
Size: Medium
Speed: 6
Vision: Normal
Languages: Domain language, patterna

Skill Bonuses: +2 Bluff. Also see Tribe Skills

Trust is Earned: Half-Vistani receive the Heroic Tier feat of Alertness for free.

Tribe Skills: Half-Vistani receive an additional skill bonus according to their tribe of origin.
Kamii: +2 Streetwise
Equaar: +2 Nature
Vatraska: +2 Heal
Naiat: +2 Acrobatics
Corvara: +2 Thievery
Canjar: +2 Arcana
Zarovan: +2 Insight

Traveller’s Background: Nature is considered a trained skill.

The Gypsy Charm: You can use The Gypsy Charm as an encounter power.

The Gypsy Charm Half-Vistani Racial Power
Flashing a smile, you can guide social interactions with great ease.
Encounter
Free Action Personal
Effect: Reroll a Charisma based roll. Use the second roll, even if it’s lower.

Heroic Tier Half-Vistani Feats

Snakeoil Vendor
Prerequisites: Half-Vistani
The Gypsy Charm racial power
Cha 13
Benefit: +2 to reroll with The Gypsy Charm

Trickster
Prerequisites: Half-Vistani
Int 13
Benefit: Select two cantrips from the Wizard spell list. You may use these as At Will powers.


=======

I intend to work out the kinks on my preliminary Caliban race tomorrow.

[Mortavius]

I haven't done any comparisons with the books, but what you've got so far for the Half-Vistani looks good.

[alhoon]

What you have done with the half vistani seems better than the original.

Minor complain: The snakeoil vendor feat is a bit weak.
A male using the trickster feat should be executed as a Dukkar.

[DocBeard]

I disagree-the Vistani don't persecute male wizards, they persecute mail diviners.

Working on the whole list, but here's an example of what I'm trying to do with the Ravenloft dieties.

The Morninglord, Good
Other Names: Belenus, Ra, Pelor,
The Morninglord is the prince of the dawn, the bright hope, the faithful friend, patron of hope, salvation, justice, zeal, and the dawn. His temples are often secret, as they are most popular in oppressed or backward lands, for while praying to the Morninglord is not really illegal anywhere, openly wearing the vestments of his church is practicly declairing yourself an enemy of the darkness, something said nightmare creatures are a little sensitive about. Some say that's ultimately for the best; the Morninglord church in Barovia's known as a earnest, if ineffective, bastion of goodness in the land, but the temples of Belenus Morninglord in Tepest are known for their excess of zeal, have been twisted into a paranoid state religion in Nialdia, and even the venerable temples of Ra were rumored to once be far more appreciative of tyranny than they presently are. While his followers are imperfect, they are united in their earnest belief in doing a little good in a wicked world:

-Be a beacon of light in a dark world, but be wary of the shadows you cast.
-Battle evil wherever it works and wherever it breeds.
-Heed the words of the prophets, who are burdened with communicating the unknowable spiritual truth to a material world.

[Mortavius]

Very intriguing Doc! I've never thought of folding all the sun gods in Ravenloft into one before. I would personally however write up a bit more on the differences between the practices of the faiths; Ra, Belenus, and the Morninglord, while sharing many qualities, also differ in some substantial ways.

Also, Andral, the ancient Barovian sun god, should probably be mentioned as well.

[Nikolas of the Mists]

What you have done with the half vistani seems better than the original.

I would hope so. The original left a little much to be desired.
All of the races in 4e got major overhauls and buffs, including such things as no racial disadvantages, and no stat penalties.

Races themselves are rather formulaic when you get down to it:
two +2 stat bonuses, and 3 distinct racial features one lesser, one mid-range, and one exceptional (occasionally an extra lesser).

Minor complain: The snakeoil vendor feat is a bit weak.

Perhaps, I modelled it after the elven accuracy ability and corresponding feat. Hopefully in a RL campaign vs the standard 4e hack and slash fest it will come out stronger.

A male using the trickster feat should be executed as a Dukkar.

The cantrips in PHB are very limited -- Ghost Sound, Light, Mage Hand and Prestidigation, as such I feel wouldn't be an issue.