What Darklords Should Go?

[NeoTiamat]

Well, how much of that is a non-compelling darklord and how much of that is the fact that the Wildlands is a domain which is never mentioned or used in anything. (At least to the best of my knowledge, I've only ever seen it in the RLPHB/RLDMG, and in that story about Jack Karn).

As for the Hags... well, Baba Yaga of Russian folklore shows that these kinds of monstrous hags can be compelling, but Baba Yaga has two aspects that the Three Sisters lack.

1. She's insanely powerful. In the stories she has the time of day at her command, can eat forests and drink streams, is a powerful sorceress, and has the best house ever. The Three Hags, nestled as they are between Azalin, Tristessa, and Malken/Othmar Bolshnik, just come off as weak country cousins.

2. Baba Yaga is much closer to neutral. A good number of stories feature heroes actually getting help from her, either by tricking her or by being extremely polite. Even when she's the villain she's usually quite willing to chat with someone before setting up the cookpot.

I once read a rather good literary essay on Baba Yaga that has her as a personification of nature. Immensely powerful, immensely dangerous, but not necessarily lethal if you handle her correctly. Giving the Three Sisters the same treatment could make them more serious and more dangerous foes, and perhaps even more sympathetic ones if they don't necessarily kill everyone who comes by.

[High Priest Mikhal]

The Three Hags, like Malken, are being overshadowed by events in their domains. If the authors are going to give that much attention to detailing the domain, then the darklord needs the same level of depth and personality. I can't claim to understand all the brick walls and censors the authors had to deal with, but would it be so hard for the rest of us to take what's there and expand on it? Remember that the darklord is the rotten heart of their domain; it was literally built around them. They deserve just as much, if not more, detailing.

That said, I still think there are a couple of DLs that could go. Starting with Gwydion. Loht would make a much more dynamic darklord.

[Gonzoron of the FoS]

The Three Hags, like Malken, are being overshadowed by events in their domains.

The thing is, as Nathan pointed out, Malken fits his domain from a thematic point of view. He's the seething urban underbelly that the lords in their rural castle estates would prefer to ignore.

The Hags... well, I guess it depends. Is Tepest "fairy tales gone back to their scary roots" or is it "witchhunt paranoia run amok?" If the former, they fit in fine. What better ruler of a dark fairy tale domain than a coven of witches? If the latter, then maybe it's time for them to move on and be replaced by an overzealous inquisitor. But then is it treading on Nidala's turf?

That said, I still think there are a couple of DLs that could go. Starting with Gwydion. Loht would make a much more dynamic darklord.

Trouble there is that if Loht can't leave the Rift, he's suddenly a lot less interesting and dynamic.

[Rotipher of the FoS]

I like Tepest as a broad-based "scary fairy tale" domain, not least because it's a place where sheer ignorance is free to cause as much harm as malice or intolerance do elsewhere. I think the reason the Hags have been overshadowed by the Inquisition lately is that there's a disconnect between the Hags' evil and that of the fey, who've played the part of the opposition in recent Tepest-based conflicts. That shifts most of the credit for Tepestani evil to random boorays and visiting Arak, not the domain's hypothetical "star villains".

If we want the Hags to reclaim the center stage in their own domain, IMO, we need to establish that they actively egg on the fey/Inquisition feud, rather than just sit on the sidelines and snicker about it. Giving each of the sisters more of an individual personality wouldn't hurt either, as it's hard to relate to a villainess when she's completely interchangable with her siblings, in every respect save game-mechanics.

[Strahdsbuddy]

I agree with Gonzoron on Loht; IMC the heroes failed miserably at the end of The Shadow Rift, even armed with the Regalia of Arak, Gwydion minced them all (my first party kill!) and Loht fell as well, though his crippled form was carried to safety by the Sith. With the expansion of the Shadow Fey in 3rd Edition, and their prolification into other domains (Mordent and Tepest come to mind) it makes sense for Loht and Maeve to be "at large" elsewhere in the Core, scheming some sort of liberation of their 'homeland.'

These domains with "sub-darklords" like Othmar don't trouble me that much. Tepest and Nova Vaasa got glanced over for most of the published line and got some great fleshing out along the way. It helps keep the identity of the darklords secret, as Ravenloft savvy players who understand that the death of a darklord brings about great change may be surprised to find things just as they were in Nova Vaasa after their daring assassination plan comes to fruition against Prince Othmar Bolshnik!

[Gonzoron of the FoS]

It helps keep the identity of the darklords secret, as Ravenloft savvy players who understand that the death of a darklord brings about great change may be surprised to find things just as they were in Nova Vaasa after their daring assassination plan comes to fruition against Prince Othmar Bolshnik!

I absolutely agree here. When every edition of the campaign setting (I think) has emphasized that the political leader of the domain is not always the darklord, I think it's important that examples like Othmar and Von Aubrecker remain intact. (another reason not to hand over Tepest to the leader of the inquisition).

[Tykus]

Well, when(ever) the Nocturnal Sea netbook comes out, hopefully you'll be pleased with how we've tried to make Easan and others from the region a bit more palatable/useful. FWIW, Jester in particular made "lame darklord salvage operations" an important priority, while working on Liffe.

I agree about King Crocodile, FWIW, but the God-Brain is tolerable if you adopt the netbook version of its backstory.

What if King Croc's curse is to die....constantly? He fears death because he hands it out so freely. That thought just occurred to me. Granted, it's not fleshed out, but it's a start.

[Baduin9]

The thing is, as Nathan pointed out, Malken fits his domain from a thematic point of view. He's the seething urban underbelly that the lords in their rural castle estates would prefer to ignore.

They don't need to "prefer" to ignore him. They simply don't know anything about him and would not be interested if they knew. The cities are entirely unimportant, and city crime is unimportant to second power.

Malken could be actually kind of useful, if one of the aristocrats would want some "entertainment" in the city. Except for that, he could be a man in the moon, as far as he can affect Nova vaasa.

My alternative proposition would be:
Nova Vaasa is a land of fields and steppes, half Ukraine, half Hungary. Both Nova Vaasa and Malkin are interesting - but they don't fit together. The Gazetter put a lot of effort into binding them together, and I must say it was very well done; but the task was impossible, and success was only partial.

A simple suggestion, based actually on the history of Ukraine: would be to divide Nova Vaasa into two domains: a port city, ruled by Malkin, and Nova Vaasa proper, ruled by some other Darklord. They can form one state - since neither of darklords would be a political ruler.

What is the historic connection? Ukraine traditionally exported grain, which was farmed in the interior (originally ruled by Scythians) and exported by Greek cities of the coast. There were many such dual food exporting lands - ancient Egypt and Alexandria, XVI century Poland and Danzig, etc.

As for the darklord of Nova Vaasa, the history of Hungary and Ukraine offers a lot of candidates. Some examples:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zalmoxis

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ermanaric
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jonakr%27s_sons
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atilla
http://www.mainlesson.com/display.php?a ... 36b1c2d85c
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bohdan_Khmelnytsky
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ivan_Mazepa
http://www.encyclopediaofukraine.com/pa ... paIvan.htm
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charles_XII_of_Sweden


http://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/wo ... y/ch03.htm
"Dózsa suffered defeat before Szegedin and moved to Czanad which he captured, having defeated an army of the nobility under Batory Istvan and Bishop Esakye, and having perpetrated bloody repressions on the prisoners, among them the Bishop and the royal Chancellor Teleky, for the atrocities committed on the Rakos. In Czanad be proclaimed a republic, abolition of the nobility, general equality and sovereignty of the people, and then moved toward Temesvar, to which place Batory had rushed with his army. But during the siege of this fortress which lasted for two months and while he was being reinforced by a new army under Anton Hosza, his two army columns in Upper Hungary suffered defeat in several battles at the hand of the nobility, and Johann Zapolya, with his Transylvanian army, moved against him. The peasants were attacked by Zapolya and dispersed. Dózsa was captured, roasted on a red hot throne, and his flesh eaten by his own people, whose lives were granted to them only under this condition. The dispersed peasants, reassembled by Lawrence and Hosza, were defeated again, and whoever fell into the hands of the enemies were either impaled or hanged. The peasants' corpses hung in thousands along the roads or at the entrances of burned-down villages. According to reports, about 60,000 either fell in battle, or were massacred. The nobility took care that at the next session of the Diet, the enslavement of the peasants should again be recognised as the law of the land."

[High Priest Mikhal]

If we want the Hags to reclaim the center stage in their own domain, IMO, we need to establish that they actively egg on the fey/Inquisition feud, rather than just sit on the sidelines and snicker about it. Giving each of the sisters more of an individual personality wouldn't hurt either, as it's hard to relate to a villainess when she's completely interchangable with her siblings, in every respect save game-mechanics.

Playing both sides would be fitting with a hag coven's tactics, and I heartily agree they each need more personality. But then the Inquisition doesn't seem to need much egging; the fey and anyone who opposes the Inquisition would probably be better for the Hags to support. The domain seems to be "real life fairy tales meets human ignorance and intolerance" in theme these days. It's showing us how the fairy tales might have played out in real life, with events and endings that would put the original tales to shame in terms of blood and violence.

Trouble there is that if Loht can't leave the Rift, he's suddenly a lot less interesting and dynamic.

I disagree. Loht could still be very compelling and dynamic even if he was restrained. Being "gifted" with unlimited shadow form for breaking the Law of Arak can't be a coincidence. He's turning into the very thing he fights against. Once he's the new "Twilight" then Gwydion can go (is he anything more than raw power? Does he even have a personality beyond basic CE tendencies?).

Actually, I quit on the topic of Loht and the Hags. This just isn't important enough to me to defend anymore.

[Nikolas of the Mists]

What if King Croc's curse is to die....constantly? He fears death because he hands it out so freely. That thought just occurred to me. Granted, it's not fleshed out, but it's a start.

King Croc's curse is on p21 and 22 of Islands of Terror. It's actually ok once you flush it out a little. Slowly dying as he sees his power and strength whittled away year after year, he is unable to prevent his eventual death. His ironic curse is that his only chance to survive is from the aid of another being, but he is unable to control his appetite long enough to receive the cure.

Should King Croc be killed by the hairless apes before the sleeping disease should run its course, another crocodile will rise up and take his place and soon be afflicted by the sleeping disease. This transfer of control is also documented in Islands of Terror on the page before his statblock.

[Archedius]

I would have to disagree about Loht - to me he seems in the same capacity as Azrael, to never quite be important enough compared with the real power broker. Oh, I also like Gwydion too: )

[Gonzoron of the FoS]

The thing is, as Nathan pointed out, Malken fits his domain from a thematic point of view. He's the seething urban underbelly that the lords in their rural castle estates would prefer to ignore.

They don't need to "prefer" to ignore him. They simply don't know anything about him and would not be interested if they knew. The cities are entirely unimportant, and city crime is unimportant to second power.

That's exactly what I'm getting at. For all their pretensions of nobility, the nobles of NV have no interest in what's going on in the cities, and no interest in helping the peasants who fill them. The theme of the domain is hypocrisy. The nobles think they are "better men" but better men would fix the problems in their land and not ignore them. Reflecting that, Tristen is a better man than the other nobles, but still Malken lies within him, exacerbating the problems in the cities. What I meant was that that the nobles "prefer" to ignore the problems rotting their cities (which Malken is a symbol of). Only Tristen cares for the people somewhat, and only Tristen knows and cares enough to fight Malken.

Although I don't think it necessary, I probably wouldn't mind a second darklord of NV in the countryside, but then you'd need to figure out what to do with Tristen. Would he be confined to the city even when not in Malken form? or drawn there when the change comes?

[Rotipher of the FoS]

FWIW, I think the "Everyone-Has-A-Hidden-Dark-Side" angle on Nova Vaasa can be played up more effectively if you assume that, while the country nobles pretend disinterest and snooty contempt for the corruption and vice of the cities, each and every one of them is actually up to his armpits in such corruption. Tristan/Malken's unique in that his dark side and his law-abiding side are entirely segregated from one another, but that doesn't mean the other noble families don't secretly have their fingers in the slums as well. Somebody's got to own the leases on all those squalid, miserable tenements, after all, and someone's raking in the profits -- all under the table, of course; no true noble would ever admit that his wealth comes from something as grubby as (ick!) trade -- from the sweatshops and workhouses and other abusive practices that aren't shady enough for Malken to monopolize.

In some respects, Nova Vaasan society might be compared to Borca's, in that the rich and powerful have a vested interest in keeping corruption in place. But unlike Borca, it's also a hypocritical system: no one deigns to admit that they choose the cat over the horse. Why assume that Othmar is the only Vaasi noble to secretly do business with the likes of Malken or the Bloodcat?

[Tykus]

Being "gifted" with unlimited shadow form for breaking the Law of Arak can't be a coincidence. He's turning into the very thing he fights against. Once he's the new "Twilight" then Gwydion can go (is he anything more than raw power? Does he even have a personality beyond basic CE tendencies?).

Uh, did you forget that it was established that his pain and unlimited shadow form was the result of a failed powers check for breaking the Law of Arak and then framing a trusted advisor. (This was mentioned G5, I believe) What surprises me is how long it took for the penalty to manifest. Given when Keening formed and the events in the SR that led to Loht's disfigurement, there were at least several centuries going by in the SR before Gwydion got his tentacles on Loht.

I will agree with you that Loht would make an interesting DL (heck, when Servants of Darkness came out, I thought he was an ex-DL) but I think Gwydion is still good for a DL. Part of his origin is still open to interpretation--is he/it an entity of the Plane of Shadow or is he an exiled demon lord (possibly obyrith) from the Abyss? Either way, for all his power, he's constantly being bested by "lesser beings." I think Gwydion represents the lurking eldritch horror behind the dark faerie tale. Not to mention, when I look at the shadow fey as a DM, I get the impression that the Arak are doing to mortals what Gwydion as done to them--changing "lesser beings" against their will and they just don't realize how much they are like their former oppressor.

[Tykus]

What if King Croc's curse is to die....constantly? He fears death because he hands it out so freely. That thought just occurred to me. Granted, it's not fleshed out, but it's a start.

King Croc's curse is on p21 and 22 of Islands of Terror. It's actually ok once you flush it out a little. Slowly dying as he sees his power and strength whittled away year after year, he is unable to prevent his eventual death. His ironic curse is that his only chance to survive is from the aid of another being, but he is unable to control his appetite long enough to receive the cure.

Should King Croc be killed by the hairless apes before the sleeping disease should run its course, another crocodile will rise up and take his place and soon be afflicted by the sleeping disease. This transfer of control is also documented in Islands of Terror on the page before his statblock.

I hadn't forgotten it, I was just thinking maybe that his spirit goes along for the ride (like what happens with Hazlik and other DLs with similar abilities). He just ends up reliving it every time possibly with no memory of the previous death. To me, the curse is no good if King Croc just dies from hairless apes and control is transferred. The sleeping sickness is good as it creates a motivator for the Big Lizard to seek out hairless apes, his hunger just wins out. And speaking from a 3.5 standpoint, remove disease doesn't prevent reinfection if he does manage to get the spell cast. The only problem with the disease is: what happens if he does die from the disease? I know the DPs will more than likely prolong his suffering, how long would it go? King Croc is no fool and he might realize that he might not die from the disease. Does the control transfer (as mentioned) as normal with a new King Croc or would the domain fade away (if it's possible)?