4e: Is it D&D to you?

[High Priest Mikhal]

I was happy with 3e, and I share the complaints that 4e has confusing rules, classes that all feel the same, "fixes" worse than the "problems," and "it's doesn't feel like D&D," so I guess I'm staying behind. What do all of you think about the changes?

[Pamela]

Oh, please don't tell me we're going to have this starting here too...

Yes, it is D&D. Just as much as 3e and 2e were.

[Mouseferatu]

Oh, please don't tell me we're going to have this starting here too...

Yes, it is D&D. Just as much as 3e and 2e were.

In fact, having played it for months (I had early copies to work from and playtest), and having now written for it, I can confidently say that it feels more like "real" D&D to me than 3E ever did.

[High Priest Mikhal]

Original D&D or AD&D? I honestly don't know, given I've never played the original. And was 3e more like OD&D or AD&D? Again, I can't tell because I've never played said original version.

[Jester of the FoS]

Elves and dwarves are races not classes.
There's no "magic user" class.
There are skills.
Higher AC is better.

How can it be D&D?!

[Lord Soth]

It isn't D&D unless my 5th-level Paladin (Human of course. A demihuman Paladin? Who's heard of such a thing?) with a 18/76 Str has a THAC0 of 14, his bastard sword has a Speed Factor of 6 (8 when used two-handed), and he needs to roll an 11 or better to save versus attacks made with a Rod, Staff, or Wand.

[High Priest Mikhal]

Forget I asked.

[Isabella]

Oh, for crying out...was any previous system using "powers" in lieu of the spells/psionics/class abilities we know from 2e AD&D and 3e?

D&D =/= Jack Vance.

That's the biggest problem I have; it feels like a war game more than a role-playing game.

No no no. 4e is a MMORPG. Duh.

Sorry if I sound frustrated, but I just want a simple "yes" or "no." Either way, I'm sticking with the 3.5 rules and adapting 4e fluff (or is that "reverting?") to fit my needs.

Yes. 4e is D&D.

Sorry if I sound frustrated, but there's two or three threads dedicated to people (including you) to saying the exact same thing. Did we need another?

[High Priest Mikhal]

I doubt I'll be the last person bringing it up. Actually I'm already sick of this subject and wish it would die in obscurity.

[HuManBing]

I'm just posting to say I feel your frustration. However, 4th ed is still DnD. This does not mean I agree with the people who shouted you down, just that I think you phrased the question differently from how I would.

The question for me is whether DnD is still worth playing. Give GURPS a try if you want something new.

Also, for Ravenloft, try Call of Cthulhu, the Storyteller system, and possibly For Faerie Queen and Country (Amazing Engine).

[Jester of the FoS]

It is a fair discussion. The "feel" of the game is very different. I realized that very much when (as a trial of how 4e works) I played with updating a couple old 1e and Basic set mods.

Often monsters worked better, as the old game really relied on multiple opponents. Unlike 3e which relied on single strong opponents.
However, 4e really, really does not handle old traps very well.

4e suffers most from its limitations and narrowness. But does it "feel" like D&D? I dunno. The "feel" of D&D varies.

There's the D&D of my high school years when I stayed up all night with my friends Scott, Jason, and Doug while improvising a wild and crazy adventure with twists and turns and strangeness that I somehow managed to all remember. Bouts of monty haul and pop culture where the PCs were as likely to fight an Alien or Predator as Strahd.

There's the D&D of my college years where we stumbled about, half-stoned and just discovering 3e. Badly mangled rules and gameplay that was a mix of editions with erratic play interrupted by Diablo, GTA3, and trips to the local Burger hole to quench the munchies.

There's the D&D of my post-University years: organized LG in the back of stores, all regulated and 110% rules with sporadic quality depending on the mods and the party. Methodical and tournament style play but disjointed with little continuity.

There's my more recent D&D. A gradual and climaxing Ravenloft campaign and a new home game with a very slowly evolving plot. But limited play occurring with month-long gaps as eight adults try to co-ordinate schedules.

My D&D is nothing like your D&D. A 4e fan's idea of D&D is very different from a die-hard 1e fan's. And the only person qualified to judge what is or is not D&D passed away earlier this year; but I'm sure he'd reference a level-by-level dungeon crawl through the bowels of Castle Greyhawk using rules based on a miniature combat game.

[High Priest Mikhal]

I've taken HuManBing's advice and rewritten the OP--and other posts in this thread. No offense to anyone meant.

[Amicus]

My ignorant outsider's perspective was mostly shaped by the preview booklets they put out early this year. It didn't seem much like D&D to me. It seemed like a vague approximation of D&D, more or less indistinguishable from any generic fantasy-themed online game. None of it persuaded me that it was likely to capture the same role-playing flavor I'd enjoyed from earlier versions.

[Pamela]

"Shouted down"? Wow, everyone must have changed their posts last night before I got a chance to read them this morning!

The mechanics of the game have changed, but every edition has fiddled with those one way or another. How you role-play is up to you in the end.

[Strahdsbuddy]

I have to agree with Pamela's last post, role-playing is what the players make of it, never what the system dictated. As someone who never fell into the "Evil DM" trap that came along with the illusion of omnipotance over an imaginary world that D&D lent itself to, i have been DM games for the better part of 10 years without paying any heed to the system whatsoever. My players will never know it, but they win and lose battles more often because it feuls the story and less because they Critical Hit the massively powerful godling that was the only thing standing in the way of them and a good role-playing session.

Jester's recount of the evolution of his game sounds like something we all experienced as we grew in the hobby. I doubt many people dragged their feet as much as i did when 3.0 came out, but i now like it better than i ever did AD&D. My friend and i discussed the WoW-ishness and the genericness of 4E last night and i remember thinking to myself "This is all moot if i keep DMing the way i always have." It is YOUR game, take what you want.

The real question, and i have not seen it answered anyplace: What does 4E mean for Ravenloft?