Return to the Mists

[Pale]

It's a return, but that shouldn't suggest that any of your august company might recognize me by name or nature.

I've been "away" from Ravenloft for quite some time - when I last braved the Mists, it was before the Grand Conjunction, when the Hexad was more prophecy than truth.

Now, I'm attempting to make my way again - however, between the weakness of memory and the changes the world, I'm not entirely sure where to start on a reacquaintence with the rules. I've heard mixed reviews of the new 4th edition and I've sniffed around the d20 OGL - and naturally, I've a few dusty guides of my own. Divided, of course, between those related to the Mists and those not.

I'm less concerned with sourcebooks and reference material now than I am with raw mechanics. Where is a good place to start if I am looking for a reasonable and, most importantly, coherent ruleset?

[High Priest Mikhal]

Ravenloft Campaign Setting (3.0) or Ravenloft Player's Handbook (3.5), Ravenloft Dungeon Master's Guide, and either Denizens of Darkness or Denizens of Dread, using 3.0 and 3.5 rules respectively are the core rulebooks. The 3.0 stuff is more than sufficient, so don't fret if you can't find the 3.5 versions.

[Pale]

Thanks.

Will The Player's Handbook and Dungeon Master's Guide provide raw mechanics, as per the original, non-Ravenloft books? Are these two books just specifically tailored to the Demiplane?

I have the campaign setting - I was able to pick it up from a second-hand store, but I'm not really struggling with the setting. I have most of the original boxes and modules - and anything like that which I don't have a hard copy of has been offered as a download. But having been out of the game for so long and with all the fanfare about a rules revision (4), I'm a bit leery about mechanics.

I've seen most of that line of books offered as PDFs as well, but can't find the site I saw them at.

[High Priest Mikhal]

The Ravenloft versions supplement the three core books published by Wizards; they don't replace them. 3e is the only system currently supported, though. 4e has yet to adopt Ravenloft (if it ever does).

The site might be paizo.com, though it's four bucks per PDF.

[Pale]

I'm looking for the raw mechanics needed to play a/any game, not just the demiplane-specific rules. Sort of a "this is how things are run now". I'm familiar enough with d20 OGL, but not with it (or the newer versions) in this (fantasy) context. I've also heard rumor that combat was significantly streamlined and that spellcasting (arcane or divine) got a bit of an overhaul.

I haven't played in a while, and grudgingly feel like I need to start off with the basics before I start sprinting ahead to the "fun stuff".


Paizo is exactly the site I was at - perfect. Good call, and thank you. Four dollars for instant gratification isn't so bad in the long run.

[Gonzoron of the FoS]

I'm not quite sure what you're looking for here that you don't already have, so let me start at the beginning. The basic rules are the same as generic D&D, and if you're looking for 3rd (or 3.5) edition rules, that's exactly the same as "d20." d20 is the generic name for the system that 3rd edition D&D runs in. (you can have d20 stuff that isn't D&D, but you can't have (3rd edition) D&D that isn't d20.)

So the core rulebooks are Player's Handbook, Dungeon Master's Guide, and Monster Manual. They exist in both 3.0 and 3.5 editions, but are similar enough that either will get you started. 90% of those books are in the d20 OGL System Reference Document, available for free several places online. (Personally, I like the formatting at www.rpgoracle.com/srd <-- This is the 3.5 version.). Those include everything on classes, races, combat, equipment, spells, monsters, magic items, etc...

Then if you've got the Ravenloft Campaign Setting, you've got the appropriate additions and changes to play 3.0 D&D in Ravenloft specifically. (The Ravenloft Player's Handbook supposedly is a 3.5 upgrade of that book, but really changes very little and adds a small amount of controversial new stuff. It is not a replacement for a regular, D&D Player's Handbook. Similarly, the RLDMG is not a replacement for a regular D&D DMG. The RLDMG is mainly tips for RL-specific DM's to build adventures and campaigns, with a random smattering of extra rules and extra fluff mixed in.)


For 4th edition, you'll need the same 3 core books, but 4th edition versions. The 4th edition rules are not similarly available online. There is a "System Reference Document" for 4th, but it's a very different document, not including the actual rules. As mentioned, there is no official 4e Ravenloft material as yet, though many here are working on unofficial conversions.

I've also heard rumor that combat was significantly streamlined and that spellcasting (arcane or divine) got a bit of an overhaul.

Well, this applies to both the 3rd edition compared to 2nd, as well as 4th compared to 3rd. (moreso for 4th vs. 3rd). So it depends which rumors you've heard.

[Ancalagon]

I recommend Warhammer Fantasy Roleplay2e for use as a system in Ravenloft. WFRP2e has a dark, gritty feel, Old World feel that works well for the horrific setting of Ravenloft. Combat is dangerous, spell casting has its perils (Tzeentch's Curse) that can easily be explained as corruption by the Dark Powers, and a built in insanity system that works very well for the environment of Ravenloft.

[Pale]

I've been out of the game for quite some time, so I'm basically looking for... the basics. I've played a few d20 non-DnD games in the meanwhile, but still need a grounding for (A)DnD. Anything for the theme (or campaign setting), I'm pretty well set with. I know that the Ravenloft setting hasn't been updated to the most current ruleset, and I'm not really looking for that - I can adapt or create as necessary if I have a coherent ruleset.

I don't want to rush out and pick up 4 if it's not terribly coherent, and I admit I'm a little confused if they dropped "Advanced" off of "Dungeons & Dragons" and whether that's cosmetic or substantive in any way. d20 is accessible, which is a significant bonus, but I don't know whether that's its own beast, if it's 3, or 3.5. Essentially, I'm asking after what this community considers the most coherent and clean edition of rules for what they want to do.


As for Warhammer, I have the first edition rules but I wasn't a huge fan of some of their mechanics - and I'm horribly, horribly rusty on them. You are correct, Ancalagon, that the "feel" of the Warhammer world offers a lot of great seeds, but right now my focus is on mechanics.

Thanks for the tips, though - and that d20 link is well-organized.

[Gonzoron of the FoS]

I've played a few d20 non-DnD games in the meanwhile, but still need a grounding for (A)DnD.

OK, if you've played non-D&D d20, you pretty much know 3.x D&D. You probably just need to learn the classes, feats, spells and such. But the basic mechanics of advancement, stats, saves, combat, skill checks, should all be very similar. (what'd you play? Modern? Star Wars? Wheel of Time? If someone here has played what you played, they might be able to tell you the major differences from D&D.)

I'm a little confused if they dropped "Advanced" off of "Dungeons & Dragons" and whether that's cosmetic or substantive in any way.

That's entirely for marketing purposes, so as not to scare away new players, and it happened as of 3.0.

d20 is accessible, which is a significant bonus, but I don't know whether that's its own beast, if it's 3, or 3.5.

3 and 3.5 are both d20, although not all d20 is D&D, and therefore not all d20 is 3 or 3.5. Does that clear it up?

Essentially, I'm asking after what this community considers the most coherent and clean edition of rules for what they want to do.

Well that will get you a lot of conflicting answers. My personal answer is 3.5, but others will disagree. (Actually, my answer might change soon to Pathfinder, by Paizo, which some people are unofficially calling 3.75. My current campaign is 3.0 with some 3.5 additions because we started in 3.0, but if I were to start anew, I would go 3.5 or Pathfinder.)

[Pale]

Bah, marketing.

Maddening. But not unexpected. I haven't seen a clear statement of "Yes, we combined ADnD and DnD", and that confusion has been annoying me mightily. I probably haven't looked in the right places.

There may be a variety of opinions about what works best - but I can sift through them and see what fits me. Perhaps Pathfinder. All the editions get a bit cumbersome, and it's good to get a second or fourth opinion.

[ewancummins]

Heck, I think Ravenloft runs pretty well with AD&D Second Edition and the Domains of Dread hardback.

[Adam]

One other possibility if you want to be able to fold in newer 3rd Ed. stuff with older 2nd. ed. stuff, is to take advantage of Troll Lord Game's Castles and Crusades RPG system. It is basically a simple, story telling based system that offers an older 1st and 2nd ed. D&D feel with the some of the simpler 3rd ed improvements (IE the roll high d20 mechanic as composed to low ACs and THAC0.) I haven't had a chance to run Ravenloft in it yet (or anything, for that matter) but I have a feeling it will work spectacularly.

[ewancummins]

Good idea, Adam. C&C looks pretty good. If he wants the cleaned up mechanics of D20 without the added complexity, it would seem to be a good choice.

[steveflam]

And C&C is quite easy to play. I've played it and find it player and Dm friendly

[order99]

C&C isn't a bad isn't a bad idea at all-one of the delights i've dicovered about C&C is the ease with whic it handles 2E to 3E conversions, both way. In fact, the Trolls maintain this is a deliberate design feature...so feel free to grab any mixture of 3E or 2E sources, the system can handle it.

I've run or played Ravenloft and MOTRD with about a dozen systems...but C&C is a nice 'entry level' converter. In MOTRD for example, i've had a DM take Classes directly from the Boxed Set, change NWP to Abilities and start the game-took ten minutes to explain the changes, and off we went in our quest for a TPK...