4e: Is it D&D to you?

[Jester of the FoS]

Half-dragon (a la DragonLance draconians), half-demon/devil/insert lower planar creature name here (a la AD&D MMII Cambion) and other such critters were meant as NPCs to use as foes of the heroes. Now they are superkewl, badarsed superhero player character races with kewl powerz. For some perspective from the creator of the game please see the AD&D DMG p.21 "The Monster as a Player Character."

Monsters have been "playable" since 2e's Complete Humanoid's Handbook.
And compared to alot of Swords&Sorcery type games (the genre, not the brand) the inclusion of elves, dwarves and the like are "superkewl, badarsed superhero player character races with kewl powerz".

Draconians got some play as a PC race in later Dragonlance products (SAGA, which also had minotaurs and centaurs). Tieflings were a staple of 2e Planescape.

Tactics, strategy, and resource management have been blunted by the inexhaustible abilities now found in the newest version of WotC's d20 fantasy game. Who needs to think anymore when you can cast spells until the end of time and seemingly regenerate hit points like Wolverine by way of healing surges?

Everyone.
Unlike earlier editions where the fighter didn't have any resource management now he has to choose when in the fight to use an encounter power and in which fight to use a daily power.
And every class now has to wonder "is this the big fight? should i use my daily power?"

I suggest actually playing the game. You'd be surprised how much tactics comes into play with the new powers. Once a group gets to know what they're all capable of, there's alot of set-up and player's feeding off each other with what are essentially combos.

But those who have been around long enough to have knowledge of the various stages of the game know that 4E, by way of flavor and spirit of the game, is no longer D&D.

But what is the "spirit of the game"?
Get twenty gamers to tell you what D&D is and what the spirit of the game is, and you'll get twenty-one answers. And one in elven.

[Jester of the FoS]

I think I should clarify something.

I don't like Fourth Edition.

I don't like it for a lengthy laundry list of reasons. I could write Dr. Seuss-esque poems about my dislike of Fourth Edition.
(I do not play it at my home
I do not play it on the phone
I do not play it in the car
I do not play it near or far
I do not like Fourth Edition
I do not like it Sam, my mon)

But that's my personal opinion; a matter of taste. I try not to make more of it than that. I don't like 4e. I also don't much like OD&D either. I'm not a fan of Greyhawk or Dark Sun.
(the latter is probably as far as you can get from fantasy and Gygax and yet its still considered D&D...)
I also don't much like Gygax. I find most of his adventures the definition of DM vs the players, with plenty of Gotcha! moments designed to trick and punish players for doing the logical thing. And most of them are simplistic dungeon crawls lacking any logic to their design (to say nothing about ecosystems).

But I know everyone plays the game how they want and everyone makes the game their own.
When I see people playing D&D as a way to design and test "builds" or as a strategic, tactical wargame... well, I don't see that much as D&D.
Neither do I see the kick-in-the-door dungeon crawls as something I'd consider as D&D. I've never cared much for those.
But I know fans of those would consider my combat-lite, story sessions as far, far away from D&D. And really, they'd be right given the history of the game. But my history with the game is different.

Identifying "the spirit of the game" to drift into cliche, is like nailing Jell-O to the wall. Or worse: picking the best series of Star Trek.
It's entirely subjective to which show you fell in love with first and how you were introduced.

4e probably doesn't feel like D&D to me because I didn't spend a full weekend in high school playing it and living vicariously through my characters.
Or an all-nighter in college when I should have been studying for an anthro mid-term.
Or a long-weekend in a scuzzy airport hotel at a RPGA convention.

Maybe, after a few years and some miles, it might earn a place in my heart. Maybe I'm just too old and I should join the ranks of other crusty, bitter gamers lamenting over an abandoned edition.
Just like the Trekkies complaining about how their favourite captain is better than their least favourite.

But in the end it's all moot.
Why?
Because everyone known Babylon 5 is better.

[High Priest Mikhal]

So, Jester, what you're telling all of us is to keep our mouths shut and stop complaining? Works for me! May this thread die an agonizing, obscure death. I'm sorry I even started this *&!@^#$*@*! thread.

[Lord Soth]

half-demon/devil/insert lower planar creature name here (a la AD&D MMII Cambion) and other such critters were meant as NPCs to use as foes of the heroes.

Check out the Planescape Campaign Setting boxed set from 2nd edition. Tieflings were a PC race there. Dragons were a PC race in Council of Wyrms. Thri-Kreen were a PC race in Dark Sun. Both Drow and Tieflings were PC races in the Forgotten Realms Campaign Setting in 3E. I've seen Drow and Minotaurs played in AD&D games, before, along with other monster races like Orcs, who were statted out as PC races in the aformentioned Complete Humanoid's Handbook. Playing monster races as PC's is hardly a new thing which only materialized with 4E.

But those who have been around long enough to have knowledge of the various stages of the game know that 4E, by way of flavor and spirit of the game, is no longer D&D.

As someone who has been around long enough to have knowledge of the various stages of the game, starting with AD&D (which I played nearly every weekend for almost the entirety of its run), 4E is very much D&D in my eyes. Just my personal opinion, of course.

[Jester of the FoS]

So, Jester, what you're telling all of us is to keep our mouths shut and stop complaining? Works for me! May this thread die an agonizing, obscure death. I'm sorry I even started this *&!@^#$*@*! thread.

Heh. Sortof.

I'm still really not happy with my posts. Part of being a writer at heart: the more you know how to write the less satisfied you are with your writing.

Okay, take three.

The "it doesn't feel like D&D" nags at me. Because it feels like a justification. It's not enough to just not like 4e, there has to be a reason; an identifiable cause for the feeling of dislike.

It doesn't feel right, so that becomes "it doesn't feel like D&D".

Really it's just different. A change. And people are hard-wired not to like the different and to be uneasy of change.

Why can't "I don't like 4e" be enough? We should just leave it at that. All likes and dislikes, preferences and favourites are just emotions. We don't need to justify not liking 4e anymore than we need to justify being happy. (Of course no one expects you to justify being happy, but they always expect a reason for you to be sad. Just like you don't need to justify liking something but you feel like you need a reason not to like something).

Okay, meandering conversation over. I'm leaving it be now.

[Jester of the FoS]

(maybe I should just compare 4e to broccoli and call it a day)

[Lord Soth]

EAT YOUR VEGETABLES!!!

[Pamela]

Thank you, Jester and Lord Soth, for the history lesson on monster PCs; I wasn't aware that it went that far back.

Dislike the game all you want, Mikhal. Admit, if you're like Amicus, that you've never played the game but what you've heard about it doesn't appeal to you. I don't watch a lot of movies for that reason. Hell, I held off playing in the Ravenloft setting till five years ago because my impression was that it was all 'gloom and doom' which favoured the villains over the party.

But don't start a thread with a title like this one, compare the game to new Coke, and belittle it (and by association those who like to play it). Unless you were expecting everyone to agree with you, it's going to invite disagreement. You want an all-positive thread, make it about why you like a particular edition.

[Isabella]

Alright, you guys are just antagonizing the poor man at this point.

[Ancalagon]

half-demon/devil/insert lower planar creature name here (a la AD&D MMII Cambion) and other such critters were meant as NPCs to use as foes of the heroes.

Check out the Planescape Campaign Setting boxed set from 2nd edition. Tieflings were a PC race there. Dragons were a PC race in Council of Wyrms. Thri-Kreen were a PC race in Dark Sun. Both Drow and Tieflings were PC races in the Forgotten Realms Campaign Setting in 3E. I've seen Drow and Minotaurs played in AD&D games, before, along with other monster races like Orcs, who were statted out as PC races in the aformentioned Complete Humanoid's Handbook. Playing monster races as PC's is hardly a new thing which only materialized with 4E.

True. 2E jumped the shark in that regard and altered the humanocentric approach originally intended. 3.x continued jumping by allowing every race to do everything no matter inane and now 4E continues the trend while scaling new heights of power creep. Blech!

[Lord Soth]

Power creep at lower levels, but at higher levels? No more +6 stat items, no more +4 Flaming Holy Keen weapons (with weapons only doing extra d6's of damage on a crit, rather than every hit), no more godlike Wizards, Sneak Attack being reduced to 5d6 damage max, etc. Are the PC's really more powerful than in prior editions, or have things just been shifted around so that their effectiveness comes from the character himself, and not his gear? The Wizard, though, has certainly been toned down heavily.

Thank you, Jester and Lord Soth, for the history lesson on monster PCs; I wasn't aware that it went that far back.

Might go farther back, but I never played any versions before AD&D. The older brother of one of my friends did, and he and his friends had the books, which I loved reading from time to time, but I never played it and I don't recall much from them (although I did love Unearthed Arcana. We damn near started a campaign at 0-level thanks to the rules in there. The Cavalier in particular looked pretty nice to me).

[Jack of Tears]

I wouldn't call Planescape's permission of non-human characters as jumping the shark - far from it, the option made the setting unique and very interesting. (though wasn't Dark Sun out first, and they allowed thri-kreen pcs)

For that matter, neither did the Humanoid Handbook, as it was handled rather well (for the most part, there are always some exceptions) and introduced humanoids as an interesting alternative, if the gm fealt so inclined to allow it.

No, the moment ADnD jumped that shark, surfboard and all, was when they put out that "player's option" garbage. To give you a great example of why, one of the characters a player made for my game combined the best attributes of a Drow, Aquatic Elf, and Winged Elf, with no real game affecting drawbacks. His class was something like a paladin/magic user which advanced about the same rate as a paladin ... again, no real drawbacks. It took me all of 1 character to see that PO was the bottom of the barrel garbage and subsiquently disallow its use. It is no big surprise that TSR went out of business directly after.

[Dion of the Fraternity]

It could be as D&D as you want it to be. It's just a matter of how you approach the game.

I also hereby declare that, if D&D is as I want it to be, then pretty much any system out there has the D&D feel. Especially "Macho Women with Guns" with its much-awaited sequel "Renegade Nuns on Wheels." So sayeth the Lurker Maximus.

[Jester of the FoS]

See, this is why I don't like discussions like this. It leads to dubious statements based on Stephen Colbert-esque gut-feeling not backed-up by any facts or research.

True. 2E jumped the shark in that regard and altered the humanocentric approach originally intended. 3.x continued jumping by allowing every race to do everything no matter inane and now 4E continues the trend while scaling new heights of power creep. Blech!

But funny thing.
4e has actually scaled back the playable monsters.
Look through the 3.5 MM and see how many monsters have level adjustment. There are ogres and orcs and dragons and trolls. Dragons!!
Now look at the finite list at the back of the 4e MM. Almost every playable monster in 4e was playable in 3.5, but 3.5 had 3 or 4x as many.
There are less non-humans in 4e. There are less fantastic races. There are no large-sized creatures either. And none with fantastic abilities that are more powerful than the core races.

But what started the monsters-as-races trend? Really?
Unearthed Arcana by Gary Gygax circa 1985 for AD&D 1e.
Which introduced (among others) duergar, drow, wild elves (power creep!), and deep gnomes/ svirfneblin to players. Three of which were famed monster races.

Again, it's fine to dislike 4e. But be honest with yourself and us.
Player's have always wanted to play monster races (that's why it was discouraged so harshly in the AD&D DMG, Gygax was cracking the arbitrary whip that said it was okay to play an elf or gnome but a goblin was out).

[Jack of Tears]

It could be as D&D as you want it to be. It's just a matter of how you approach the game.

I also hereby declare that, if D&D is as I want it to be, then pretty much any system out there has the D&D feel. Especially "Macho Women with Guns" with its much-awaited sequel "Renegade Nuns on Wheels."

Nah, I hear the Nuns are way unbalanced and they're talking about nerfing the Wheels.