Problem With Poison

[DeepShadow of FoS]

Indiana Jones bargains with a bunch of Chinese gangsters for the antidote to the poison he just drank. Vizzini falls victim to the very iocane powder he proffered to rid himself of the mysterious man in black. Hamlet realizes he is doomed by the scratch of a poisoned blade, and makes sure to take others down with him.

Would any of these scenarios happen this way in D&D? Would Indy's player have simply looked at the character's Fort save and decided to take his chances? Would Vizzini's player have estimated that the Man in Black would actually be saved by his prodigious strength and chosen a different route? Would Hamlet's player have hoped for low damage rolls on the second save and played things a little safer?

Has poison in D&D been nerfed? If so, how might we fix it? My PC's are coming up against poisoners soon, and I want to keep the drama high.

[Daisu]

Campaign to liven things up, had potent poison that will kill in 365 days that only way to cure is with another poison that is just as strong, so have the PCs hunting down things that sting and eating hallucinatory-inducing mushrooms as part of quest rewards to rid it. So they thwarted the noble's assassination attempt by scarfing down the noble's meal in public because there was no other way.*shrug*


In my some of my home campaign 2nd ed games poison that blinds makes things bit more interesting. After that blind-fighting proficiency became a staple :p

[Archedius]

Of course, in real life most of the poisons in the DMG would outright kill a person with little chance of survival. How can this be replicated? You could add +3 to the save DCs across the board or maximize the ability damage poisons incur. Even then that's less than accurate.

Diseases in DnD are also weak.

[The Giamarga]

One of the problem wqith poison is imho the lack of an onset time or a gradual effect. There was an article in an old 1E Dragon magazine with rules for partial and gradual effects of poisoning and paralyzation which i quickly adopted.

If you have houseruled this somehow, you can more easily make the saves a bit harder as there is more reaction time for PCs.

[Rotipher of the FoS]

Unfortunately, poisons IRL vary so much in their effects and lethality that any system depicting them realistically would have to be extremely complex. Indeed, each variety of poison might require its own set of rules.

[Drinnik Shoehorn]

Unfortunately, poisons IRL vary so much in their effects and lethality that any system depicting them realistically would have to be extremely complex. Indeed, each variety of poison might require its own set of rules.

I miss the old Death/20 poisons from 2nd Ed...

Save or DIE!

I save!

Cool, take 20 points of damage.

But I'm a 5th level mage! I'm still dead!

[Nikolas of the Mists]

In 4E, the improve/worsen of conditions like diseases are perhaps the greatest mechanical implementation of the system aside from combat.

If I were to DM a game where poisons were prevalent I would use a track like this so that poisons weren't just one save to throw off effects.

[Troile]

Of course, in real life most of the poisons in the DMG would outright kill a person with little chance of survival.

Those poisons are actually pretty accurate.

Take arsenic for example. If you compare it to the LD50 of arsenic the d&d stats are very accurate.

The problem is that characters above 5th level are superhuman. I think people forget this.

Vizzini thought about Westley's strength, but what he didn't count on was that both goblets were poisoned. He lost the battle of wits when he agreed to it on Westley's terms. There are rules for drugs in Ravenloft and I cannot remember but I'm sure they have rules for building up a tolerance too. If not it would be easy enough to make them up.

In general I think the poisons in d&d are pretty good. If you want a specific effect then you could make up new ones. Typically if you want to poison someone over the long term you give them weak poison many times.

Indiana Jones bargains with a bunch of Chinese gangsters for the antidote to the poison he just drank.

Hamlet realizes he is doomed by the scratch of a poisoned blade, and makes sure to take others down with him.

It depends on what reputation poison has in your world. If the PCs know that people get poisoned and die a lot they would most likely be frantic to stop that secondary damage.

[Rotipher of the FoS]

If I were to DM a game where poisons were prevalent I would use a track like this so that poisons weren't just one save to throw off effects.

That could certainly work better than some of the alternatives. Still, it'd very much depend on the poison in question.

With snake venom, the outcome would primarily depend on whether the snake got a chance to inject its venom or not. Sometimes, they don't.

With arsenic, building up a tolerance actually is possible, provided the preliminary building-up process doesn't kill you.

With insect venom, a really badly-botched save might indicate an allergic reaction and anaphylactic shock.

With cyanide, realistically, you'd just plain die. No save, no last words, no treatment possible ... even in a d20 Modern game.

[Troile]

With cyanide, realistically, you'd just plain die. No save, no last words, no treatment possible ... even in a d20 Modern game.

Only with a high dose.

Toxicities: Cyanide is the least toxic of the "lethal" chemical agents. The LCt50s of AC and CK by inhalation have been estimated to be 2500-5000 mg"min/m3 for AC and about 11,000 mg"min/m3 for CK. LD50s for hydrogen cyanide have been estimated to be 1.1 mg/kg for intravenous administration and 100 mg/kg after skin exposure. The oral LD50s for sodium and potassium cyanide are about 100 and 200 mg/kg respectively.


1 dose of poison = 1 vial = 1 ounce = 30ml

This is why arsenic makes sense. The LD50 lines up perfectly with an average person.

When we talk about potent poisons we can say DC 18 or even higher. In d&d our heroes are superhuman. A 15th level Barbarian could rightly drink a litre of Arsenic and be okay.

[DeepShadow of FoS]

So perhaps multiple doses in a single attack? That would create more tension and maybe send people scrambling for an antidote. It also has the automatic counterbalance of increased cost.

[Rotipher of the FoS]

Cyanide is the least toxic of the "lethal" chemical agents. The LCt50s of AC and CK by inhalation have been estimated to be 2500-5000 mg"min/m3 for AC and about 11,000 mg"min/m3 for CK. LD50s for hydrogen cyanide have been estimated to be 1.1 mg/kg for intravenous administration and 100 mg/kg after skin exposure. The oral LD50s for sodium and potassium cyanide are about 100 and 200 mg/kg respectively.

By terms of dosage required, it's not so toxic. But what I was referring to is the fact that there's no countermeasure that will save you, if you are subjected to a sufficient dose of cyanide.

[Archedius]

Troile, in ravenloft high level chars can't be that superhuman as it ruins the mood and feel of the setting. I don't care if a barbarian is level 15- if he drinks a litre of arsenic he better die.
I have no problem with the graduation of poisons as that sounds like a great idea for long term poisoning. Good thing I was referring to the DMG poisons- and not the list in Gaz 3. Going back with that in mind- I'm pretty sure my point still stands.

An example of this being monstrous spider venom- people in real life can be bitten by extremely small spiders and suffer life threatening necrosis unless treated immediately. Now, a spider that most likely feeds on deer, humanoids, anything about that size, would be all the more lethal seeing as it could puncture deep into the body cavity to release the poison and enzymes to predigest it's food.

To me, the above justifies a +3 to the save DC or maximized damage for that perticular case- and I can make an arguement for each poison on the DMG list.

[Archedius]

this also jogged a thought- why didn't they include putting rust on a blade? It's an old fashion way to disease a wound by causing Tetanus (lockjaw) and others. Oil the blade and coat it with powdered rust, or use a rusting blade.

[HuManBing]

Undead soldiers could easily do that. Score another point for the Darkonian Irregular Army!