Problem With Poison

[Archedius]

that's a good idea- wonder why that's escaped me all this time. And here I just had brigands and goblinoids doing that.

[Ronia Sun]

The Darkonian Irregulars... :: snicker :: I'm gonna HAVE to use that joke IMC now, since I've got a half-elf PC from Darkon...

This is an excellent discussion on how to use poison. I was kind of wondering myself, since this Saturday I have my party coming up against a child (sort of) ermorderung, and was trying to figure out how I wanted to work the poison angle. Generally, I'm a DM who does not believe in killing off PCs (even in Ravenloft) unless they do something spectacularly stupid, but at the same time, it makes poison-as-fear-factor somewhat less effective.

Hmmm...perhaps I'll have the poison from the hell-child simply paralyze the victim, with no saves. That'll make damned sure the PCs *really* don't want to touch her...

Or, better yet, no saves on the kiss (if they're dumb enough to let her plant one on 'em) and a DC of at least 20 for the poison touch...

Oooh, I like.

[A G Thing]

I found three steps in my games give poison back its edge...

1: Make taking the save vs poison a full round action or else they automatically fail, that happens on the start of the players next turn. This is to show them sucking out the poison, inducing vomiting, or covering their mouth to lessen the poisoning.

2: Make the players take maximum damage for both primary and secondary damage.
Example: A poison that deals 1d6 con on the first and 1d6 con on the second instead of randomly dealing only 3 con damage on the first and 1 con damage on the second for 4 total now deals 6 con on both for 12 total...

3: If they fail the first save but pass the second if they make the save have them suffer a -1 to -5 penalty to further fort saves, and skill affecting physical symptoms such as cramps, shakes, nausia, dizzyness, blurred vision, anosmia, or numbness depending on the poison on for the next 24hours, as your body needs time to recover from even minor toxins...

The players are not helpless as they can buy healers kits, anti toxins, cast spells, use skills, and even take feats to increase their survival chances. And once you set this precident don't be suprised if the players start thinking about using poisons...

[Archedius]

I love the second and third houserules you have there but I am not a fan of the first. I see what you're trying to do with the full-round action but the reasoning behind it is incorrect.

None of those things you mentioned will actually work in real life at all, especially trying to suck out venom- it doesn't work. Even if it did, 6 seconds isn't enough time. If you're going to have a brutal houserule, it should at least be legitamized by being realistic.

Besides- it's very imbalanced to make your PC's use up an entire round basically to make a simple save. God forbid they have to fight any monstrous vermin or people with poisoned weapons.

That's sorta like concentrating on not catching a disease, either you do or don't but regardless it happens in the background. With poison- either your body can resist it or it can't. Charcoal can help with ingested poisons but other than that- good luck. And yes- some people have been known to resist snake and spider bites.

The basic 3.5 rules for saving vs poison are pretty good and it's best for gameplay to work within those. It's very rough on your players to use your first rule and doesn't even have fact to prop it up.

The other two rules you have are very, very cool though.

[A G Thing]

In truth I never used the first one but I have implemented the other two but not because I didn't find them realistic, but because I just wanted to avoid slowing down the game more than anything...

I guess you are right but I thought those had some minor effect on poisons which is why I listed it...

[Darkknight]

How I use poison is solely on the means of the creature or creator. Snake bites really don't kill that often or will kill you in four hours if not treated. There are so few poisonous creatures that can kill a person that it does make some sense. Now a spider the size of a car... that poison will kill you and fast. I have added three to difficulty and maxed the damage. Now for man made poisons.... We have some of the most proficient poisoners in this world. I mix and match poisons and then add multiple side effects. If you are combining snake and spider venom the difficulty goes up by 5 depending of course on the spider and the snake, one will do direct damage and one does con damage, all of a sudden you are losing the hitpoints you need and taking the damage that will kill you. Poison is deadly in my campaigns at a reasonable level.... a little spider bite won't kill you... unless that spider has been created by someone.

[Rotipher of the FoS]

Another option for buffing up poisons would be to add another chance to take damage. Such "tertiary damage" can happen one round after the secondary damage occurs, and it'll have the same effect on the victim if not saved against or treated in time.

The Gaz IV writers had secondary damage repeat itself indefinitely until you die, but that was a unique effect of Ivana Boritsi's kiss.

[Jester of the FoS]

It is also possible to add some new poisons that do 4d6 Con damage and have a high DC.
That'll scare any PC. Especially as it also essentially deals hitpoint damage (2 points of 6Con = 1hp/level).
What makes ability damage so scary is that it's just as effective at level 12 as at level 2.
You might also take a page from 4e and have DCs scale with level.

[JinnTolser]

The big problem I have with most poisons in 3.5 is that the DCs are just too low. A great many of them can be shaken off even by a level 1 commoner with a reasonable chance of success. Only the few strongest present any real threat at all beyond very low levels, and those tend to be so expensive that procuring more than a dose or two is nearly impossible.

[Archedius]

Exactly, this brings us back full circle- poisons aren't deadly enough w/out multiple houserules. The amount of bookeeping as a DM when poison is involved is well...involved. That's my biggest annoyance really, but it's still worth it.

[DeepShadow of FoS]

New solution: don't allow a save. That means careful tasting/spot checks, handy antidotes, ready with heal checks, and get them on bedrest so they can get their lost points back. Magic and mithridating (ingesting poison to build immunity) regularly are allowed a save.