Children in the Mists

[Jack of Tears]

I was curious how many (or indeed, if any) of the people here had attempted to run ravenloft adventures revolving around children ... that is to say, games in which the players themselves portrayed children.

For varied reasons, some quite valid, I have noticed that few people ever tap pursue this avenue in gaming. Yet, children and childhood provide for vast possibilities in game.

Children, by their nature, live in a world much different from our own. That place in which they dwell exists somewhere between waking life and an eternally dreaming world of make believe. Their perceptions are not yet clouded by rational thought and scientific dogma.

The world of a child is open to and filled with shadows. Adventures make themselves available on every level. From wild pulp adventure, to the painfully terrifying, a child's imagination is able to conceive and create both with such detail and substance that fantasy might as well be reality.

I know, I have pushed this concept before, but having just recently got back into 'Little Fears' (a game I highly recommend to anyone interested in the child horror genre ... though it is difficult to find any longer) I thought it a good time to resurect the idea. Besides, I suspect about half the people here are newly arived to RL since my days on the (once very active) forum.

At any rate, thoughts, comments, ideas? And if you've played Little Fears, sound off ... I find too few people who know of and appreciate this game. I'd love to see a community resurface for such.

[Pamela]

The most obvious problem for players is that the classes are meant for adults- or at least teenagers who've completed the training required to work as an adventurer.

That's one practical consideration. Another is being part of the group with a child. Would they want the responsibility of having to keep this player as well as themselves alive? Is the PC child able to contribute at all, or is it going to lead to irritation of having to carry this burden all the time?

For emotional reasons, I still wouldn't encourage it, unless I'd known the group involved for a very long time, and was sure that everyone else was comfortable with trying it out. The danger in many games is that found in many cheesy horrors- children are portrayed stereotypically, and are manipulated for the shock value, rather than being portrayed to evoke memories of that time we've shared.

But that's just my opinion.

[Jester of the FoS]

We've had discussions about young characters before and the consensus was that under 11 or 12 was simply too hard too play and too detached from reality. Any physical combat would be death and they're simply too young.

It would be interesting as a one-shot story maybe, but I can't imagine them being motivated to do heroic things, opposed to say hiding, on a regular basis.

[artent]

I played in a game of Grimm which kind of had the feel of little kids trapped in the shadow rift..with a bit more power though.

[Jester of the FoS]

It might be fun as a one-shot story to de-age the characters to children and then let them struggle through an adventure, but that's a fairly severe handicap.
Likewise an entire party of 11yo could be interesting but only for a short period unless they aged fast and grew-up over the course of the campaign.

Death and injury become truely problematic in such a game. Would you feel comfortable killing a kid? Having one tortured for information or sport? Have to kill someone or die themselves.

[cure]

C.S. Lewis' Narnia series might provide a little inspiration as children are the heros throughout the six or seven books. But even he cheats, suggesting that the air of Narrnia gives the children of Earth a strength beyond their years.

[alhoon]

Hmm. Children as PCs. . . Well I have tried to work something out, like "finding the sheep that has been stolen by a couple of goblins" but they don't seem as appealing as original adventures.
Combat is out of the way as the reaction of most children in danger is to run or hide, even if they are "tough" so to speak. On the other hand, they could gang up and beat up a goblin or halfling, since they are shorter than them.

Yet children (not de-aged adults) that have been given . . . power through fey activity could be interesting.

[Brandi]

Unfortunately, D&D wasn't really designed with child characters in mind and trying to shoehorn them into the PC or even the NPC classes is a clumsy fit. I wonder if this mightn't be one of the cases where a GM might be better off contemplating an alternate system, though adapting brings its own host of problems...

[Jack of Tears]

Frankly, I'm surprised there is so much resistance to this idea. But, let us take a look at a few of the comments:


>>The most obvious problem for players is that the classes are meant for adults- or at least teenagers who've completed the training required to work as an adventurer. <<


There is an assumption here that anyone who meets the requirements of a class received some form of official training. Street urchins, who spend their days living by their wits - stealing and conning a living from people - certainly qualify as rogues. That imaginative kid who sees magic and stories everywhere - who entertains his friends and family alike with fantastic tales derived from the top of his head is very likely a bard. The reclusive girl who spends her time healing animals, planting flowers, looking for lost pets, etc.. has the earmarks of a druid. Sorcerers inherrit their power from a bloodline and often receive no detailed training. The school bully, the kid who protects those younger than he, the young man who has been beet up by his step father until he took the initiative to fight back .. any of these could be fighters. Now, most of these characters are going to begin at 0th level, but their directions are evident and after a few real adventures this predisposition will lead them toward those occupations.

Now, someone is already saying "Fighting on the playground or tending the broken wings of animals is not the same as being a fighter or a druid." To which you would be correct ... however, no one said that children were going to fit into the system the same way as adults. Children, instead, are going to scale toward child sized problems. So fighting a giant may not be possible, but tackling that goblin that cornered the kid while searching his house for food is another matter. The issue here is one of perceptoin ... to the child that goblin is as terrible as a giant and the effort to overcome it, rather than become dinner, is going to be tremendous. If you tell your players that they are fighting goblins and fixing the broken leg of a mangy cat, they are going to be highly underwhelmed ... but if you feed into the perceptions of their characters - wherein a gobin becomes a terrible red eyed monster whose knees and elbows all jut out at the wrong angles; which make that mangy cat a noble lion or a wise sphinx - then they will be as entertained as in any "heroic" adventure.

Consider that the adventures of your mortal men and women wouldn't be very impressive to Titans either. It is all a matter of perspective.

But, really, people seem to be getting themselves bogged down in the world as adults perceive it. As I stated in the initial post, children don't live entirely within that same world. First of all, children can see things invisible to adults - the vampire or ghost so easily hiding from your grown pcs may be quite plain - though terrifying - to a child. Of course, the children won't face danger the same way as pcs, but they have their own weapons and not all children are going to be helpless and frightened beyond the ability to react. (after all, standard pcs are themselves a breed above and beyond the average villager) In the world where children live .. where the monsters are everywhere - in closets, under beds, in the corner of the room even if it looks like a coatrack when the lights are on - there is also a certain acceptance in the existance of monsters that adults may not be ready for.

As for weapons: Well, children have faith, conviction, compasion and imagination in levels exceeding most grown men or women. Sure these weapons won't stop an angry bugbear or even a human with a sword ... but in the world of the mystical, where belief is more important, they come much more prepared. In his pure belief that it can be done, a young boy might turn an hungry vampire away from him .. or deceive it altogether when it can't find him under the blanket. Because he believes in the charms of his youth and has the conviction to stand behind them, a simple rhyme might transform become agony upon the ears of a spectre. After all, the creatures of the night exist in that same half-reality as children and must thus be subject to some of the same rules.

More on this later ...


>>That's one practical consideration. Another is being part of the group with a child. Would they want the responsibility of having to keep this player as well as themselves alive? Is the PC child able to contribute at all, or is it going to lead to irritation of having to carry this burden all the time?<<


Really, my intent was that the entire party should portray children. However, I have had a pc play a little girl in my ravenloft game and this became no great problem at all. The child pc had lived as a street urchin, learning the thiefly trade in the gutter like many before her. While initially she as picked up by the party out of a sense of pity and protectiveness, she made herself useful by virtue of her skills and her unique childish perception. Because she had none of her own the pcs became her family. Sure, they were protective of her and never wished to send her into danger, but chance (the same thing that spurs most adventurers along) and little girls have a way of getting what they want. She may be a bit precocious, but trust me, this player works with children for a living and would never allow something like the cotrivance of a game to get in the way of her characterization.


>>For emotional reasons, I still wouldn't encourage it, unless I'd known the group involved for a very long time, and was sure that everyone else was comfortable with trying it out.<<

The same goes for any mature game.


>>The danger in many games is that found in many cheesy horrors- children are portrayed stereotypically, and are manipulated for the shock value,<<

There have been a number of good movies (many of them came out of the eighties) which portrayed children as protagonists, rather than victims and a means to shock adults. "Monster Squad" sticks out in my mind, as it was a favorite when I was near the same age as the characters - as does "IT". (in the book, as with the movie, the story was only believable and entertaining when dealing with the children - - aside from the very end of their story when they had to engage in prepubescent intercourse to escape the monster ... that was just a scary look into SK's head)


>>We've had discussions about young characters before and the consensus was that under 11 or 12 was simply too hard too play and too detached from reality. Any physical combat would be death and they're simply too young.<<


Well, first, I was thinking more along the lines of ages 6 - 9. Second, there is a double side to the topic of portraying children. Though the characters are certainly further removed from your own world and perhaps - though you can play elves, wizards and half fiend priests of llolth - too detatched from a reality you can relate to, the very concept of children and childhood touches a core with adults. This core, many times, makes for a potentially greater attatchment to the subject of the character, and thus makes the player more reactive to that character's situation. It is a simple matter to laugh off and play silly with kids in a fantasy game .... but add mature horror and the game becomes more serious and engaging.


>>but I can't imagine them being motivated to do heroic things, opposed to say hiding, on a regular basis.<<


Yes, but reluctant heroes are a staple of fantasy and horror. In fact, if you march into a scenario with images of heroism in your eyes, you are less prepared for horror.


>>Any physical combat would be death and they're simply too young. <<


Of all settings, a Ravenloft player and GM should know that combat isn't always the best answer ... nor is it very straight forward.


>>I played in a game of Grimm which kind of had the feel of little kids trapped in the shadow rift..with a bit more power though.<<


Grim is a very appropriate example, as the creatures the children face are rarely substantial in the same way as a human foe. These are fairytale creatures, subject to fairytale realities ... much as I had suggested earlier.


>>Death and injury become truely problematic in such a game. Would you feel comfortable killing a kid? Having one tortured for information or sport?<<


Why not? DMs do it to NPC's all the time. Is it worse to have these things happen to pc children? For that matter, if you've a moral problem with torture and killing, shouldn't that apply to adult pcs as well as kids? I would have no qualms about putting children through game appropriate situations. Though, you have to consider that few villains are going to treat children the same way as adults. It is one thing for the villain to have a full grown pc tortured, but he might feel differently about a child ... after all, villains are not mindless evil entities, but people with their own agendas and moral codes. As a gm and player both I've portrayed villains who would and wouldn't pursue such a course of action ... you simply need to take a closer look at the person when that question comes up.


>>Unfortunately, D&D wasn't really designed with child characters in mind and trying to shoehorn them into the PC or even the NPC classes is a clumsy fit. I wonder if this mightn't be one of the cases where a GM might be better off contemplating an alternate system, though adapting brings its own host of problems...<<


I did mention "Little Fears" and I believe "Grimm" is another good system. (in fact the initial Grimm was a d20 system) But I don't really agree with this assumption anyway. Where is it that the system states it is not appropriate for pcs of a specified age? If you can't play young pcs does that mean you are as equally incapable of using the rules for very old characters? Then what about non-humans? The system is simply a set of guildlines by which to run a game, I fail to see how it places any real limitation on the subject of that game.


>>Well I have tried to work something out, like "finding the sheep that has been stolen by a couple of goblins" but they don't seem as appealing as original adventures. <<


The first problem is assuming that the adventures have to be mundane. (or, as I stated earlier, have to be portrayed that way) Another thing to consider is that children adventure all the time, though we call it "playing make believe". A session of make believe can send a group of children off as brave adventurers determined to kill a dragon, save a princess and win a kingdom ... or as stars fighting for dominion of outer space. A child, when playing, doesn't tell himself "this is all make believe" - he steeps himself in the game and imagines all the trials, terrors and successes to be real, for a time. You could so the same with child pcs ... one week they might be knights and great heroes .. another they might play "orcs and elves" ... if you portray the events as real, then the game is interesting. I'm not suggesting you take this course for all their adventures ... but as a means to break up the flow of the story ... reminding yourself and the players that these are children and children take to flights of fancy.

Alright, I'm all talked out for the moment ... if there is anything I've missed, or new points anyone wants to make, feel free to bring them up.

(As a side note, because I realize voice is a difficult thing to relay in type, I want to make certain no one takes offense to anything I've said in addressing their comments. I can't see how anyone should ... but it does happen and I want to head that off here ... so don't take any of my responses as condescending or rude .. they are not meant to be.)
[/list]

[Kel-nage]

My main problem with letting the players be children is that I would want to immediately upgrade every fear save into a horror save, any horror save into a madness save. And if they came across a madness save, I think it'd be straight to the Maison d'Sante for them. Children's minds are (obviously) a lot less developed than even a teenagers, and are much more vulnerable to fear and the likes, hence the re-grading of the fear saves.

[Pamela]

No offense taken.

I was thinking about IT, as well as other Stephen King's books- The Shining, Salem's Lot, and The Talisman. I'm not saying it's impossible to write well about children. I just think it's very difficult.

Children do have wonderful imaginations; as you point out, they can take the mundane and make it fantastic. It's part of why I love reading Calvin and Hobbes so much. The problem is maintaining that sense of wonder. I play online forum games, and the few 0-level games I ever saw died quickly.

[Jack of Tears]

>>I just think it's very difficult. <<


But then, doesn't the challenge itself make it worth while?


>>My main problem with letting the players be children is that I would want to immediately upgrade every fear save into a horror save, any horror save into a madness save. And if they came across a madness save, I think it'd be straight to the Maison d'Sante for them. Children's minds are (obviously) a lot less developed than even a teenagers, and are much more vulnerable to fear and the likes, hence the re-grading of the fear saves.<<


Ah, but you have to remember that children are quick to bounce back from most anything. A child who brakes an arm or sees a monster is going to be upset today, but tomorrow is a whole new story. Sure the most terrible of events are going to leave scars, but such things leave scars on adults as well. As I mentioned before, children - who see monsters every day - are actually less likely to become mentally unhinged, than unbelieving adults, when one leaps out of the closet. If you've read IT (a book I keep coming back to because it did an excellent job with the portrayal of children - despite the fact that I loath Stephen King) you can see just what I am talking about. The children in that novel face monsters one day and are off playing "guns" the next. Crisis are rarely so difficult for children to overcome ... and when they are, repression and denial kick in. (besides, if your characters do fail horror and madness checks, this will add more character and tragedy to their tale.)

(By the way, I'd hardly call the minds of children less developed than teenagers. Teenagers, after all, are in the midst of going through some seriou social, mental and physical changes; everything is confusing and upsetting to them.)


>>I play online forum games, and the few 0-level games I ever saw died quickly.<<

I'm sorry to hear that. I've had nothing but good experiences with my 0th level adventures. Really, as with any game, it depends upon your players.

[Jester of the FoS]

My suggestion, before you attempt something like this, spend some time with children ages 6-9.
Volunteer at a day care. Crash a elementary school. Visit some cousins or young family. Ask the kids some questions.

Those are the ages when kids are still detached from reality. They have little moral sense and have not developed a strong sense of right or wrong. For example, few countries can even charge a 9 year old for any crime. In Canada children as old as 11 are essentially exempt from the law. Having the moral strength to survive when facing unspeakable horrors is out. They will lie, cheat, steal and sell out their closest friends if it mean surviving.
They have a very fluid grasp of reality as well. These are the ages when children can still be convinced that Santa Clause is real. Some might be unable to distinguish or even understand concepts as simple as sarcasm, literal interpretation is as far as they can get.
Simply put, children that young are too removed and different to accurately portray. They’re hard enough for their parent’s to related to and understand let alone twenty year old games who don’t have kids and haven’t been kids for a decade and a half.

Younger teens are alright. Street urchins and the like are fine. But typically sticking to pre-teen age groups (11, 12, 13) should be as young as you should go.

Really, no child, no matter how brave, is going to investigate vampires or werewolves when they can just hide, repress, deny and the like. It makes for a lousy adventure when all the player can do is cower under blankets.

[Jack of Tears]

Most of what you list here as negatives, you'll notice I've included as strengths.


>>They will lie, cheat, steal and sell out their closest friends if it mean surviving. <<


While I will admit that children have a very underdeveloped sense of morality, I've never known any to sell out their own closest friends (get in fights, sure, adults do that as well) ... but, then, I've never placed them in life or death scenarios either.


>>Really, no child, no matter how brave, is going to investigate vampires or werewolves <<


As noted previously, I don't expect these children to go out hunting down ghosts and goblins - I expect instead that they would be drawn into scenarios without their permision and be forced to act in their best interests.

You are correct, however, no adult can portray a child with perfect accuracy. Just as no human can portray an elf, dwarf or half-fiend with 100% accuracy; at some point we just have to make those concessions which allow us to continue enjoying a fantasy rpg.

I actually find it interesting that people are getting so stuck on the idea of perfect portrayal of children. If I'd suggested a game wherein all the players portrayed humanoids I doubt the resistance would be nearly so complete and unyielding.

[Jester of the FoS]

You are correct, however, no adult can portray a child with perfect accuracy. Just as no human can portray an elf, dwarf or half-fiend with 100% accuracy; at some point we just have to make those concessions which allow us to continue enjoying a fantasy rpg.

Very true, however there are no elves, dwarves or half-fiends to compare our portrayal with for authenticity.
If I were to, say, play a game where I took the role of a young Abraham Lincoln I would be hard-pressed to justify playing him as a perpetually stoned surfer dude. It would take people out of the game and shatter the illusion.
Playing little kids in a realistic manner (and not at all like they are portrayed in movies or sit-coms) is just as risky as playing the dude in the hat because breaking character is that much easier.

Playing and writing kids is hard. How often do you watch TV and criticize the portrayal of children? If you and your players are skilled enough and mature enough and comfortable in the situation then go for it.

I can see a number of good adventure ideas and opportunities for a child-orientated game. Most revolve around a heavy fairy tale or boogieman atmosphere. Or would revolve around escape and survival rather than conflict. Children trying to escape a haunted house alive or some dark and scary wood. Not exactly the most heroic stories. It’d be fun once but who really wants to play red riding hood and the victim all the time? D&D is about being the woodsman, not the female plot-device who just becomes endangers and screams.