Awaken Guilt spell versus Evil priests

[cure]

The Awaken Guilt spell from Van Ritchen's Arsenal is described as follows:

"[T]he spellcaster awakens all the remorse and regret that lies within the subject’s heart. Obviously, this spell can only affect subjects who are capable of feeling guilt and have reason to feel guilty. Irredeemably evil creatures like fiends, flawlessly good creatures like celestials, and non-intelligent or amoral creatures such as animals and beasts are immune to awaken guilt. At the DM’s discretion, some darklords and Innocents may also be immune. [. . .] the subject relives her most morally reprehensible, selfish and aggressive acts. The spell tears away the subject’s illusions, allowing her to see precisely how cruel and vicious she was. In some cases, these memories may require that the subject make a Horror save. [. . . subsequently] she often tries to remain a good person for as long as possible. How long this determination to improve lasts is a matter of DM discretion, but it generally takes a number of weeks equal to the spell’s caster level for the subject to return to her old habits. [. . . ] the subject’s moral character has less effect on this spell than the subject’s sense of self. The noblest priest can fall victim to this spell if he believes that he has a shameful past, while a truly vile character may be unaffected due to her penchant for blaming others for her failings. In some cases, this spell may cause permanent (though voluntary) alignment change. Evil characters may see the error of their ways and completely change their lives. However, this spell can just as easily strip a character of all moral restraint. If cast once too often on good subjects, they may become disillusioned, realizing that no matter how hard they try to be good, they continue to do hurtful things. Convinced that it is impossible to avoid disappointing and hurting those around them, they may become selfish and bitter."

Now ignoring for the moment that there is a Will Save and that priests have a good chance of making such a save, I am curious as to the consequences of this spell for a priest of the Lawgiver (Lawful Evil), a priest of the Eternal Order (Neutral Evil), and a priest of the Wolf God (Chaotic Evil).

I would think that such characters are not under any illusions as to what they are in relation to Good. Surely they know that they are Evil and pride themselves upon it. Yet neither are they flawless in their Evil (as are celestials in their Good) nor are they irredeemable in relation to Good (at least in comparison to Darklords). So they would seem susceptible although perhaps not in an ordinary sense.

I would think that they should be capable of guilt in respect to falling short of all that is demanded of them by their religions and their gods. Why else is the Atonement spell open to all faiths rather than just Good aligned ones? But can a priest be so certain of his worthiness as to be incapable of guilt? Would not that very certainty itself be presumption, sin and guilt to be awakened?

More generally, I would think that they should be capable of guilt in respect to falling short of the demands of their alignment. A Lawful Evil priest might be guilty of treasonous behaviour (which would be disloyal, unjustified & unlawful), gratuitous violence (which would be disproportionate, unlawful & unjustified), mercy (which would be weak, dangerous, unjustified & unlawful), perhaps misanthropy (which would be Evil for Evil's sake at the expense of Law) and perhaps legalese (which would be Law for Law's sake at the expense of Evil). A Neutral Evil priest might be guilty of love (which would be weak, dangerous & stupid), legalese (which would be Law getting in the way of the maximization of Evil), and Emotionalism (which would be Chaos getting in the way of the maximization of Evil). And a Chaotic Evil priest could be guilty of devotion (which would be loyal, discriminate, unchaotic), constructive behaviour (which would be helpful, unchaotic & unnihilistic), kindness (which would be weak, dangerous & un nihilistic), perhaps misanthropy (which would be an obsession with Evil that gets in the way of Chaos), and perhaps hedonism (which would be an addiction to Chaos that gets in the way of Evil). But perhaps failings along the Chaos-Law axis can not be awakened by the spell at all whether in good or evil victims of it.

I realise that the spell was written to drive individuals back to Good, but in the case of anyone who is self-consciously and proudly Evil, I have difficult seeing how there would be the guilt for it to work that way.

Other or better interpretations or suggestions?

[Tobias Blackburn]

I don't see there being a problem for the spell. You're making the mistake of assuming that, like the Realms, the people know the alignment of their God. Ravenloft is more about the doctrine. The clerics of these gods haven't made the decision to worship evil, they are worshipping a "proper way".

The Lawgiver explains the chain of being and how everything fits into it. The clerics are charged with making sure the divinely ordained order is upheld. If they didn't do their duty, Chaos would reign and the world would fall apart. Their methods may be dark, but they have been proclaimed by the Lawgiver. How is that evil?

The Eternal Order holds back the Dead, keeping them from sweeping in and destroying the living. They may perform sacrifices of blood and other dark acts, but if they didn't then the Requiem would occur on a global scale. A little cut now prevents the seas from running red later. How is that evil?

The Wolf God keeps the pack strong. He is a god of nature's fury, a true divinity that lurks in the wild places of the earth. He demands that the pack remain strong, that the natural place of predator and prey (the Food Chain of Being?) be upheld. He is savage and dark, but so is nature itself. He is the embodiment of the natural order that keeps a group strong and prosperous. How is that evil?

The methods that each god uses is dark, but it would be extremely rare to meet a cleric that feels their god is evil. In a normal DnD world, everyone and their brother knows that Nerull is an evil death god, and they're ok with that. There's more of a grey area for Ravenloft where the gods aren't part of a pantheon. It's less "He's evil, but he'll give me power" and more "I truely believe in this message and want to play my part in the divine plan, regardless of what I must do to serve the cause."

When all is said and done, the spell just makes them realize that maybe their methods were too dark and harsh, and see any suffering they've caused in a different light. It's no different than a mercenary or a guard who performed atrocities for an evil king.

[Dominique]

I agree with Tobias Blackburn. Clerics of the Lawgiver would be especially easy targets for a punch in the conscience--their religion mostly revolves around dehumanizing those whom they oppress ("your ancestors rebelled against the Lawgiver milennia ago and caused him to destroy our perfect paradise, so you must deserve your lowly station/pointy ears/whatever"), so the spell could just hit them with the full knowledge of the fact that the people they abuse are no different than they are.

[cure]

Ok, that makes some sense to me. Not yet perfect sense, but progress at least.

Is there any good discussion of alignment in Ravenloft? I think I have heard the suggestion once or twice in the forum to simply dump it, but something a little more detailed and compelling would be appreciated.

How does the priest who succumbs to the spell square his insight that whipping people to death for stealing bread is vile with his faith that the Lawgiver wields the whip justly? Does the victim of the spell doubt his own religion? Does he lose access to divine spells? Is an Atonement spell going to be necessary down the road?

Equally, I can see Strahd being susceptible to the spell (saving throws aside). But Alfred Timothy and priests of the Wolfgod generally? The thought, "People can be (or at least become) werewolves too," hardly seems compelling in considering how the pack might have got carried away in its last slaughter. It could be reasoned internally from the viewpoint of the religion, not killing the goose that laid the golden egg, but that is not what the spell is about. Is the illusion that is torn away the contention that werewolves are 'beyond' good and evil by virtue of being 'natural'?

Finally, what do you make of the statement from the spell description: "the subject’s moral character has less effect on this spell than the subject’s sense of self. The noblest priest can fall victim to this spell if he believes that he has a shameful past, while a truly vile character may be unaffected due to her penchant for blaming others for her failings"? The least troublesome way to read it is as saying that no mere mortal is immune from having to make the saving throw regardless of alignment. Yet it seems to be saying pretty clearly that certain senses of self are consistently more open, and others consistently more closed, to the effects of the spell. Whether this is before or after the saving throw is not clear to me. A priest would seem to have a pretty resistant sense of self in that he can consistantly blame his sins (from the perspective of the spell) on the will of his god. Perhaps this is reflected in his superior Will saving throw.

At bottom, I am trying to see what goes through the head of a priest who fails the saving throw. What does his time of being a better person look like? What does he do or not do in relation to his past and to his religion?

I suspect this spell might have interesting application for the Teachers order of the Lawgiver and perhaps even its inquisitors but the devil is in the detail.

[Drinnik Shoehorn]

Equally, I can see Strahd being susceptible to the spell (saving throws aside). But Alfred Timothy and priests of the Wolfgod generally? The thought, "People can be (or at least become) werewolves too," hardly seems compelling in considering how the pack might have got carried away in its last slaughter. It could be reasoned internally from the viewpoint of the religion, not killing the goose that laid the golden egg, but that is not what the spell is about. Is the illusion that is torn away the contention that werewolves are 'beyond' good and evil by virtue of being 'natural'?

Could Timothy's guilt stem from the frenzy he builds, but knows it's to no avail. He's causing the werewolves to kill for no reason, as his God's false?

[Rotipher of the FoS]

Timothy's guilt is that he blames his evil actions on "the wolf within". Real wolves aren't evil or vicious, and are afraid of humans rather than active predators upon them; it's his human side that gives Alfie-boy the capacity for deliberate malice and cruelty. Indeed, his "Wolf God" is actually a representation of human fears and misconceptions about wolves, not what wolves (Neutral creatures that merely survive as best they can) truly are.

So Awaken Guilt could rub his face in the fact that he's worshipping and emulating, not wolves, but a human superstition that demonizes wolves out of ignorance and terror. He's perpetuating the very myth that he despises humans for acting upon, when they kill wolves.

[cure]

double post (network problems)

[cure]

Then the guilt of the cleric of the Eternal Order?

The horrific blood rituals and the like are worse than a crime committed in vain. They are in fact treason against the living. They strengthen, not weaken, the ranks of the dead. The appeasement is in truth tribute.

[Tobias Blackburn]

Then the guilt of the cleric of the Eternal Order?

The horrific blood rituals and the like are worse than a crime committed in vain. They are in fact treason against the living. They strengthen, not weaken, the ranks of the dead. The appeasement is in truth tribute.

You're misreading the spell. It attacks their most selfish, violent action, not necessarily anything that has to do with their faith. If you cast it on a very new priest who had just joined the clergy and hadn't done anything (in his life) but perform the rituals, then you MIGHT (assuming he never did anything that hurt a personal friend) cause him to reflect on the wrongness of the actions done for his faith. Might.

[Rotipher of the FoS]

It attacks their most selfish, violent action, not necessarily anything that has to do with their faith.

Actually, the spell description says it awakens all of their remorse and regret, not just the guilt they feel about their worst single offense. Their worst specific action might be felt more strongly than others, but it also rouses feelings of guilt for lesser offenses ... heck, even imagined offenses, if we consider the example of the noble priest who believes his past to be shameful. If there's something to feel guilty about, and the target is psychologically capable of feeling that way (I'd exempt clinical sociopaths as well as fiends IMC), then that's what the spell brings up.

[Brandi]

Personally, I think it'd be pretty amusing if it turned out that a character was so sociopathic he felt guilt about *nothing*... or that he had a misplaced sense of guilt over a deed, ie Alfie feels guilty for not being able to bring his wolf out properly, not over the possibility that he's got it all wrong.

[Corrupted_Loremaster]

Personally, I think it'd be pretty amusing if it turned out that a character was so sociopathic he felt guilt about *nothing*... or that he had a misplaced sense of guilt over a deed, ie Alfie feels guilty for not being able to bring his wolf out properly, not over the possibility that he's got it all wrong.

Something to the effect of a veteran Lawgiver cleric feeling ashamed of all the times in his youth he showed a measure of leniency to his lessers? Or a Wolf-God cleric remembering every time he wasn't quite as cunning, ruthless, and bloodthirsty as he was supposed to have been? Interesting notion....

[Spiteful Crow]

Personally, I don't think Celestials should be automatically immune to it. I bet if you smacked Isolde with this spell, she might feel guilty for twisting people, or for hunting the GC without regard for others.

[Mangrum]

I bet if you smacked Isolde with this spell, she might feel guilty for twisting people, or for hunting the GC without regard for others.

I'm not sure I agree on the former, and since when does Isolde hunt the GC without regard for others?

[Corrupted_Loremaster]

Outside of Ravenloft, I'd say that while they wouldn't be immune, they'd certainly be very resistant. An angel feeling guilty about what it does would be about a common as a demon who starts to consider that it might be wrong to skin people alive and make attractive hats out of them, in other words so rare as to be the stuff legends are born of.

Inside...perhaps not so much, the land might sow tiny seeds of doubt that would leave them a little more vulnerable. Still, I'd say it'd still be something they're not easily affected by. Still, it's not as though celestials are a common enough thing in Ravenloft that it'd be an important question to answer.