What would you want in an official 5e Ravenloft setting?

[Five]

I'm pretty sure the younger generations can handle horror just fine. Just get rid of the bad stereotypes and voilà.

It's not just the younger generation having to navigate the waters of horror (and of contemporary hot button issues) , but also of the publisher and their ability to draw an official line (moral liability).

Not to mention Ravenloft is built on every stereotype known to the genre. To attempt to exclude them completely is to wipe the game off the table.

If bad stereotypes trips people out to the point of causing an uproar, then what is acceptable (published) horror at the table? Are all evil NPCs to to be white, male, straight, and middle-aged? Undead? Unholy? That's rhetorical. .

Kinda hard to highlight Evil if the material is all politically correct (not that there ever can be such a thing). Evil is a seed that can grow everywhere. To protect A or B from it is to lose its very meaning. There has to be a way for Wizards to vehicle evil/horror (and the majority of its classic stereotypes) without offending either warmbloods or coldbloods. Ravenloft could be just that, if done right. A vehicle for introducing horror to 5E D&D. Also could be an exercise in putting their money where their mouth is and offer players of their game a way to respectfully tackle subject matter that lies beyond what is currently published. They want to teach, then teach. Don't take the ball and run to the locker room. I'd really like to see them rise to the challenge, though I have my doubts.

I don't want this to turn into another heated opinion piece where some people may feel like they're being victimised, so I should stop myself there.

Meh

[Gonzoron of the FoS]

I don't want this to turn into another heated opinion piece where some people may feel like they're being victimised, so I should stop myself there.

Yes, please.

All, lets avoid derailing the thread with talk about political correctness. CoS didn't shy away from dark topics, and it's certainly possible for horror to thrive alongside sensitivity. It just takes some extra work to avoid the lazy cliches. I've deleted a couple of snarky responses in this thread that moved toward further derailment. I hope not to have to do more.

I encourage the thread to head back toward its original intent of what you would want, rather than what you'd fear 5e Ravenloft would do. (I realize the line between the two can be thin. Let's all just be a little more cognizant of it.)

*moderator hat off*

[ewancummins]

I think new Ravenloft could bring back cheesecake.
Let bodices be ripped!
I'm halfway serious. A return to the Caldwell babes of yesteryear would be in keeping with the gothic vibe and Hammer Films influences of the setting.
In truth, I wouldn't go full-on romance novel cover art. I'm thinking of things like the cover art for Forbidden Lore and the classic illo of Strahd with Virginia Weathermay. Nothing porn-y, just an element of sex.

[ewancummins]

[Five]

CoS didn't shy away from dark topics, and it's certainly possible for horror to thrive alongside sensitivity.

I always thought of horror, entertainment horror, as the willingness of some to manipulate (not torture) the pressure points of their audience. The du jour sensitivities of joe and jane public, if you will. If that is a truth outside of my head then how can that be done in a rpg from, arguably, the world's finest?

A mature product line (see half serious above) could open up some doors (officially bring horror tools to D&D, classic horror where stereotypes are more important than the names of the characters), but close others (RL could become equally unrecognisable, and certain players, ages, and sensibilities will be for all intents and purposes outed).

But you're right. Ravenloft exists today and never officially equipped us with such tools, so the parallel track system does work for the most part.

[ewancummins]

Having now played and run a fair bit of 5E, I can safely say it wouldn't be my go-to system for Ravenloft (AD&D 2E is still the best for this setting, I think) but that it could certainly work if tweaked in more or less the same ways that the original boxed set alters AD&D: restricted and altered magic, fear and horror checks, powers checks. This sort of rules document wouldn't require a new book. A free web enhancement for the Black Box PDF or Red Box PDF would do the trick.


But hasn't the Ravenloft setting already been converted to 5E? I've seen 5E Ravenloft books on DMsGuild.

[Gonzoron of the FoS]

But hasn't the Ravenloft setting already been converted to 5E? I've seen 5E Ravenloft books on DMsGuild.

Indeed, the fans have picked up the baton, as they have many times before. WotC was even kind enough this time around to allow them to sell their work on dmsguild. We've seen the argument before that Ravenloft can't be done in edition X, and every time, someone manages to make it work. Which system is the best for Ravenloft is largely up to personal preference.

With that said, fan-made work, even officially sanctioned, doesn't have the quality-control, nor the "canon" cache that "real" in-house developed official products would, nor the reach to bring in new fans.

[Mischief]

If there is one point where a Ravenloft campaign would really want to deviate from the 5e rules (and optional horror aspects) is the social/knowledge end.
I've by now sat down and read through older modules just to get a feel for what was. My impression.... you fight way too much! All sorts of random critters too. Dying is scary, exp and treasure is nice, but where's the cloak and dagger? Some of the best modern CoS moments are entirely social/exploration: the Death House and deciding how to implode Vallaki to name two strong ones. There's nothing wrong with spending a session sneaking around burning spell slots on disguise, social, and investigation. Dreading the monster that hasn't revealed themself yet while trying to ferret out its weakness is the staple horror feeling.
Keeping that thought in mind, players not knowing stuff is important to getting Ravenloft to feel right. In 5e, lore knowledge is in four categories: arcana, history, religion, nature. I think these are too broad. Same with the discovery skills, Investigation, Insight, and Perception. It's pretty easy to make a 5e build into the Ken Jennings of knowledge checks or the ultimate detective rogue. In a normal spell and slash high-fantasy setting this wouldn't really break the vibe because the skill emphasis is more dungeon-loaded, not "battle of wits at a masquerade party and digging up graves in the dead of night".
I do like the way older divisions had subtopics and I think a 5e Ravenloft should add optional rules for more granular skills - like you would break a single skill point into quarter points and assign them to get proficiency in Religion (Common Core religions), Religion (Elder Gods, Nightmares, and their cults), or Investigation (Forensics) to piece together a crime scene and Investigation (Dungeoneering) to spot a secret passage or figure out how to collapse a tunnel on a monster's head.
Also with the extra languages, you would definitely be handing out more of those proficiencies and items for learning them quickly.

If we are talking about wants, what a 5e Ravenloft would benefit from most is a reboot of Hyskosa's Hexad. Six domains, six short missions, finale Azalin vs Strahd. Honestly I'd like to see it reworked ground up. New core map, new timeline, domain inheritance, no domain rearrangement oddness. Inajira is definitely one of the biggest "who's that?" characters for someone coming in late. I'm happy to let someone convince me otherwise but my limited first impression is that he is a third wheel. Why not set the event a bit back in time before CoS, so we can have a younger van Richten and gang of monster hunters running around simultaneously?

[RavensCall]

I want a whole year dedicated to Ravenloft. I know it's not feasible or profitable for Wizards of the Coast, but you asked me what I wanted. (Then again, I still want my old box sets too). Whatever campaign settings they decide to release, I feel just 1 book isn't enough to get players, (especially new ones) to understand and buy into a setting. So I'd love to see them pick a setting, say Ravenloft and run with it for the full year. (Or at least most of it). Release a campaign setting book, something like Domains of Dread. Give an explanation of the setting, what makes it different and so forth. Update the timeline and campaign setting a few years later. Give a run-down of the various domains, darklords and other important information to run the setting. Then update all the rules and stats to 5e, complete with fear, horror, madness and powers checks, as well as altered spells and so forth. Again, like I said, a book like Domains of Dread. Then release a hardcover mega-adventure path like the always do. Have this path explore a number of domains and perhaps form a new world-altering event that explains why the setting is the way it is in 5e. Use their YouTube and twitch channels to promote the setting and do deeper dives into the various aspects of the setting. Perhaps make a few modules available, even if just PDF or update the old modules to 5e. (I know there are some like that on the DM's guild, but I'm talking something more official). I know they don't do novels anymore, but a new comic/web comic series would be fun and maybe some short story fiction. A new setting will have new players options and so forth. We just had Tasha's that covered new options as well. They could then use their online presence to show how these new options can be used in other campaign settings. For example, we're taking up a year with Ravenloft, but let me show you how you can put Calibans in your own homebrew setting, or see these Reavers and Sea Spawn, look how you can use them in the Realms and so forth. At least, that's what I'd like to see. Then we can talk about finishing the Gazetteers.

[Gonzoron of the FoS]

If we are talking about wants, what a 5e Ravenloft would benefit from most is a reboot of Hyskosa's Hexad. Six domains, six short missions, finale Azalin vs Strahd. Honestly I'd like to see it reworked ground up. New core map, new timeline, domain inheritance, no domain rearrangement oddness. Inajira is definitely one of the biggest "who's that?" characters for someone coming in late. I'm happy to let someone convince me otherwise but my limited first impression is that he is a third wheel. Why not set the event a bit back in time before CoS, so we can have a younger van Richten and gang of monster hunters running around simultaneously?

I like this idea. The Hexad suffers from poor planning, and being retconned into being a thing. I don't think the writers of FoG, SoH, or ToD had any idea they were writing anything other than a standalone module. Then NotWD came along and invented Hyskosa to pull them all together, but it was too late to plant anything in the first 3. Then Inajira came about because the original plan to use Arijani for part 5 fell through (get it, his fortunes will "reverse"?), so they had to invent something to make the call-forward in the prophecy make sense. The whole thing barely hangs together at all without big DM changes, which is a shame because several of the individual adventures are excellent, or at least partially so. A rework with 20/20 hindsight could be fantastic.

[Mephisto of the FoS]

...Also I would want Survey of the Nocturnal Sea, Survey of the Zherisian Expedition, Van Richten's Society Dopplegangers to be canon

[ewancummins]

But hasn't the Ravenloft setting already been converted to 5E? I've seen 5E Ravenloft books on DMsGuild.

Indeed, the fans have picked up the baton, as they have many times before. WotC was even kind enough this time around to allow them to sell their work on dmsguild. We've seen the argument before that Ravenloft can't be done in edition X, and every time, someone manages to make it work. Which system is the best for Ravenloft is largely up to personal preference.

With that said, fan-made work, even officially sanctioned, doesn't have the quality-control, nor the "canon" cache that "real" in-house developed official products would, nor the reach to bring in new fans.

Hmmm....


I'm not sure the 'quality control' of 'official' Ravenloft was really that high. Products ranged from great to mediocre in content and utility. I'm thinking of the text, not its presentation. Professional editing and layout along with a healthy art budget do go a long way toward making a nice product. I love the look of most of the 2E books and boxed sets. Fabian!

I suspect WotC won't repeat the mistake that TSR made in producing so many campaign settings with full product lines. Better to create generic content and modules that sell to a wider set of gamers. Don't split your base too much. The DMsGuild allows Wizbros to make money off of its treasure trove of IP while expending no resources of its own and letting others do the work.

I noted upthread what I'd like to see: a new mega-adventure featuring The House on Gryphon Hill, with the focus shifted from

VIEW CONTENT:

Strahd the Alchemist/Beast

to Lord Godefroy and other spirits and hauntings, quite different from the plot of Ravenloft 2.
Will we see this? Probably not. But I think a new Ravenloft-related module more likely than a new campaign setting book for Ravenloft.


Please don't let my skepticism about the likelihood of new 'official' or 'canon' books coming out spoil the fun of the thread. And, hey, I very well could be wrong! Wizards might release its 5E equivalent to the Black Box next month, for all I know.

[Gonzoron of the FoS]

I'm not sure the 'quality control' of 'official' Ravenloft was really that high. Products ranged from great to mediocre in content and utility. I'm thinking of the text, not its presentation. Professional editing and layout along with a healthy art budget do go a long way toward making a nice product. I love the look of most of the 2E books and boxed sets. Fabian!

Oh, no doubt. I'm talking about what we would see if WotC released it now. The official 5e products I've seen are much more highly polished than the ones we fell in love with despite their flaws and rough edges back in the day.

I noted upthread what I'd like to see: a new mega-adventure featuring The House on Gryphon Hill, with the focus shifted from

VIEW CONTENT:

Strahd the Alchemist/Beast

to Lord Godefroy and other spirits and hauntings, quite different from the plot of Ravenloft 2.

Indeed, the "haunted house" is a classic Ravenloft adventure motif and a natural one to share the joys of Ravenloft with the D&D world at large. And it would be a good place to showcase any of the type of changes to knowledge and investigation skills that Mischief suggested, if they implemented anything like that.

[Five]

I'm not sure the 'quality control' of 'official' Ravenloft was really that high. Products ranged from great to mediocre in content and utility. I'm thinking of the text, not its presentation. Professional editing and layout along with a healthy art budget do go a long way toward making a nice product. I love the look of most of the 2E books and boxed sets. Fabian!

Oh, no doubt. I'm talking about what we would see if WotC released it now. The official 5e products I've seen are much more highly polished than the ones we fell in love with despite their flaws and rough edges back in the day.

Yeah, 2E Ravenloft seemed to carry a certain greyness to it, textually, mechanically, and artistically. A fog of not too little or too much direction/detail, rules that were open to DM interpretation (remember, the original powers check was percentile roll, with a 100 a failure. 5 percent chance for completely evil acts, with a recommendation for DMs to not increase chance of failure by more than 10 percent. And that was it. No breakdown of the acts themselves. The Red Box expanded this to what we all know today), and art that was for the most part dim but situational, both slow burn and explosive. I've said it before but Stephen Fabian's art is hands-down my favorite (even outside RL), but frustrating in that I can't describe it. Heh

5E is polished. Very crisp. If they wanted to recapture that feel of something different, treat the whole thing as a standalone product of theme linked only by a core rules overlay, then they'd almost have to "dumb down" their current approach. Or, focus less on the overall look of 5E line in its entirety.

Kick the Ravenloft book a few times. Bang its corners. Crack its spine. Rub some dirt on the pages. Replace the majority of character art (it's great stylistically but not very inspiring imo outside of the now classic "Who's Doomed" portraits) with art depicting the, or a, situation the PCs may find themselves in. Capture the feel of the setting you're selling. Gothic horror D&D without visuals of crumbling ruins, shadows, superficial goodness, sinister intent, and heroic struggle is just base D&D under a different name.

That's a long-winded way of me saying that I would like to see focus put into the look of this hypothetical book almost as much as its content.

And I second putting a focus on social/knowledge. They can vehicle classic themes and stereotypes (archetypes if you prefer) and add another tool to the DMs toolbox so that they can better cater to their players' horror wants and needs. Also could make them competitive with horror-only rpgs such as CoC, and might draw in some of those fans as a bonus.

[Gonzoron of the FoS]

Replace the majority of character art (it's great stylistically but not very inspiring imo outside of the now classic "Who's Doomed" portraits) with art depicting the, or a, situation the PCs may find themselves in. Capture the feel of the setting you're selling. Gothic horror D&D without visuals of crumbling ruins, shadows, superficial goodness, sinister intent, and heroic struggle is just base D&D under a different name.

So, like Curse of Strahd, then.
The book itself isn't banged-up and aged like you'd like (and yeah, that would be cool, but logistically costly), but the interior art is pretty top-notch and mood-fitting, despite it's polished-ness....




Fabian (or someone like him, as he's 91 and probably retired!) (or my personal fave, Talon Dunning) would be great, but they aren't skimping on mood. (No more pirate elf Strahd! Remember him?)