Queer Representation in Ravenloft

[doctornecrotic]

Haven't gone through the thread intently, but lots of historic figures and societies could prove inspirational. For example, take Sri Raji, you could have a third gender character who would immediately be at home for somewhere analogous to Ancient through Medieval India, especially as referenced in public accounts and scripture, for example. Many of said people had risen to various important stations as well. I presume you want established canon or already created fanon characters though. I'm just prone to musing on ideas, with a side of history and anthropology rambling, sometimes I actually commit to properly elaborating upon them.

Also, Alanik and Arthur were totally together before! (TSR were just too cowardly to admit it! At least, so say I! )

[TheArcaneWeirdo]

Haven't gone through the thread intently, but lots of historic figures and societies could prove inspirational. For example, take Sri Raji, you could have a third gender character who would immediately be at home for somewhere analogous to Ancient through Medieval India, especially as referenced in public accounts and scripture, for example. Many of said people had risen to various important stations as well.

Good point.

I presume you want established canon or already created fanon characters though. I'm just prone to musing on ideas, with a side of history and anthropology rambling, sometimes I actually commit to properly elaborating upon them.

You're absolutely welcome to tell me of characters you invented on the spot. The more the merrier.

Also, Alanik and Arthur were totally together before! (TSR were just too cowardly to admit it! At least, so say I! )

So people were shipping them beforehand!
I was trying for ages to figure out whether this was an intentionally queer-coded or commonly shipped duo that was simply finally canonized or a real change.

[doctornecrotic]

You're absolutely welcome to tell me of characters you invented on the spot. The more the merrier.

I created a dandy and poet/performer npc, Anton ("Simply Anton, no other name is needed!"), from Dementlieu who was quite open about his prior relationships with noble men and women. As a slightly snobbier character, he didn't like to devote too much time to common folk, the party is an exception due to their "proper ethic" and "upstanding character". His downtime is usually socializing at the Port a Lucine playhouse or in various high society gatherings there or Chateaufaux. In truth, he was part of The Brain's criminal network of mind controlled spies. While Anton was forced to extract and relay info, he did actually love those he was with. A tragic character, a compassionate lover used to instead cause harm (as Anton's relationships often turn out to include syndicate rivals or supporters of Dominic). Despite that, his optimism has never truly faded, as he looks for ways to be freed from his tormentor and finally find love without tragedy. The party never fully succeeded in liberating him from the Brain's influence fully, just chasing off the brain. So, he's somewhat free... for now.

[TheArcaneWeirdo]

You're absolutely welcome to tell me of characters you invented on the spot. The more the merrier.

I created a dandy and poet/performer npc, Anton ("Simply Anton, no other name is needed!"), from Dementlieu who was quite open about his prior relationships with noble men and women. As a slightly snobbier character, he didn't like to devote too much time to common folk, the party is an exception due to their "proper ethic" and "upstanding character". His downtime is usually socializing at the Port a Lucine playhouse or in various high society gatherings there or Chateaufaux. In truth, he was part of The Brain's criminal network of mind controlled spies. While Anton was forced to extract and relay info, he did actually love those he was with. A tragic character, a compassionate lover used to instead cause harm (as Anton's relationships often turn out to include syndicate rivals or supporters of Dominic). Despite that, his optimism has never truly faded, as he looks for ways to be freed from his tormentor and finally find love without tragedy. The party never fully succeeded in liberating him from the Brain's influence fully, just chasing off the brain. So, he's somewhat free... for now.

Ohhhh.... -character added to hugs box-

[TheArcaneWeirdo]

I've just read 'VRS Files: Dopplegangers', and it occured to me that Ricos (AKA Nick Carlyle) feels very transmasc-coded.
I guess you could call every doppleganger who chose an imago of a different gender that the one they were assigned at birth 'trans', or all dopplegangers non-binary, but Nick feels even more like that? Maybe it's the emphasis on how much he hates gender norms, or his description as hyperactive (there's some correlation between gender dysphoria and ADHD)... The 'non-traditional family' Dread Possibility also has a queer vibe to me.

IDK if the writers intended it, but I feel like if I met Nick Carlyle without knowing he's a doppleganger, I'd immediately be like 'oh, he's one of us'.
If it's intentional, I'm impressed because it's a really good example of a villanous queer character who's still good representation. He's villanous in a way that has nothing to do with his gender or with stereotypes about the trans community.

[Isolde]

The best and only efficient way (as its foundational) to represent the existence of all sexual stuff like that in the Gothic horror of Ravenloft is the following, based on historical examples with the self-purpose being maintaining and enhancing the Gothic horror atmosphere of the setting and each domain (so different horror in each domain as in punishments, though some will be the same).

This way you can have your character(s) running from authorities of all sorts (persecution dialed up to 200%), and not just supernatural but mundane as well. That werewolf will tear you to pieces and eat you alive, starting from your guts, but the authorities may end up tearing you to pieces just fine as well if you do not go stealthy about the land.

Medieval authorities viewed homosexual acts and non-procreative "deviancy" as capital sins against nature. Punishments were violently severe, usually featuring burning at the stake, castration, or mutilation. Secular courts enforced these horrific penalties across Europe, including places like France and Italy. The approach to punishing these acts evolved over the medieval and early modern periods:
The Death Penalty: By the 13th century, secular laws increasingly mandated that sodomites be burned at the stake. In France, same-sex acts were criminalized in 1206, with escalating penalties leading to the first recorded executions for same-sex acts in Western Europe in 1292.
Mutilation and Castration: Earlier legal codes, such as the Visigothic code in Iberia (Law 3.5.4) and various Byzantine laws, often favored castration or the amputation of body parts to punish sexual offenses.
Flogging and Banishment: Lesser offenders or those subjected to coercion (such as youth involved with older individuals or clergy) were often publicly flogged, branded with hot irons, and permanently banished from their home regions.
Ecclesiastical Discipline: Clerics and members of the church hierarchy were frequently treated with more leniency than laypeople. Instead of capital punishment, guilty clergy were often confined to ecclesiastical prisons, fined, or subjected to strict fasting.

For a darklord example, consider a Bathory-inspired noblewoman who secretly preys upon beautiful women—not for explicit acts, but to drain their youth and vitality in arcane rituals to preserve her own fading beauty. Her victims become hollow-eyed thralls, their wills utterly shattered, bound to her service. The horror lies in the mounting disappearances, the noble's public piety masking private atrocity, and the party's dawning dread as they realize their hostess is a predator. This curse might force her to constantly seek new victims, or risk degenerating into a nightmarish hag—but the focus stays on the Gothic tragedy and the slow, creeping realization, rather than on lurid details.

Other darklords could capture folk and use them in grim experiments (the Dr. Frankenstein type, like Victor), singling out those society already deems expendable—whether "deviants," outsiders, or the destitute—as an "excusable" source of human material. They arrest them, make them vanish under a legal excuse, and it's goodbye.

This raises compelling questions for the party: Will they betray the lesbian couple they met, or their innocent-in-all-other-aspects gay friends, just because of their own rigid morals? How far will they go to protect their beliefs when the price is a friend's life?

Mechanically, this approach gives spells and items like nondetection amulets far more value, as staying hidden from both supernatural and mundane authorities becomes a constant tactical concern.

That said, sexual stuff degrade the Gothic atmosphere in the blink of an eye if handled poorly. The line between grimdark horror and porn-themed atmosphere is fragile and thin—if these things are not presented with focus, subtlety, and narrative care, they will fail and become stupid, devolving into oversexualized "junk food" rather than meaningful gothic dread.

Keep the focus on: Gothic Horror & dark fantasy, with mystery. Brutal torture and suffering awaits in every corner even in that city you entered to be sheltered from the horrors of the dark forest if you are not careful. Tyrannical darklords are all over the place. The suggestion and implication of taboo is far more terrifying than its explicit depiction.

[IanFordam]

The best and only efficient way (as its foundational) to represent the existence of all sexual stuff like that in the Gothic horror of Ravenloft is the following...

I respectfully suggest that some game masters and players would prefer that their sexuality not be treated as one of the horror elements. There are plenty of ghosts and werewolves available to provide a Gothic feel. Setting aside historical accuracy for the enjoyment of the game is a valid choice.

[Isolde]

That is what it was and if it is not something forbidden and requiring some hidden practices then the ravenloft setting, and anything adjacent as a concept, is a bad parody of anything gothic horror and dark fantasy. It would make it a joke to say the least.
If nothing is forbidden and taboo, or some sexual things are not, then the setting becomes flat and mono-dimensional. Unreal in a pitifully numbing manner. Makes no sense.

It would be like Mozgus from berserk manga saying, "well there is no sin and punishment for, we are just here to distribute cool beverages - never mind our appearance and infamy. All is permitted so just go fight some monsters and come back and have a beach party as our divinely ordained morals is anything goes and its all fine."

https://berserk.fandom.com/wiki/Mozgus

The horror and atmosphere comes to a large degree from situations that are forbidden and taboo.

If this "Mozgus is the most feared and famous Holy See inquisitor." was "Mozgus is the most feared and famous Holy See inquisitor. But all sexual deviance is perfectly fine for Mozgus and for society in general." The entire thing would not function.

What you are a talking about is a fluffy from one dimension and convenient fantasy setting. Not gothic horror and dark fantasy, but gothic garments and comfy fantasies, its superficiality.

[Speedwagon]

While I understand a desire for a specific vision of gothic horror and the Ravenloft campaign setting to ensure paying homage to the classics of gothic literature that inspired it, I find myself in agreement with Ian Fordam regarding the inclusion of someone's sexuality or sexual orientation to be part of the horror element. That's a conversation to be had with your table at session zero, and it requires everyone's buy-in. As Ian said, "Setting aside historical accuracy for the enjoyment of the game is a valid choice." It 10000% isn't an obligation. Every gothic horror table, or TTRPG table as a whole, is different & unique, and while we can all have our opinions of whether this is 'truly' gothic or 'Scooby-Doo' or whether there should or should not be more room for other genres of horror in the campaign setting (regarding differences in edition and how topics are handled and more), I really don't think that this is one of those topics. If I have a table where my players (perhaps some of them are queer) are aware and willing to play with "historical accuracy" (never mind that Ravenloft isn't a historical RPG and the attitudes within the Domains of Dread need not hew to real-life history), then that's fine. They bought into it. But I do not think a blanket assumption of "historical accuracy" needs to be a foundational cornerstone of the setting, depending on your table. Should I have a table where my players (perhaps some of them are queer or are not) don't want to play with those expectations? Then I can find many other parts of the setting to horrify them appropriately and enjoy.

I can point to other TTRPGs, like Call of Cthulhu, where this discussion has been had and has been addressed within their own official materials to ensure that anyone, regardless of who they are, can enjoy playing at a table with that game as the focus. I think Ravenloft can do similarly. Same with other topics, like non-fantasy racism in a domain like, say, Souragne. Souragne's gazetteer (the FoS one) even alludes to such a thing being a convo with your table and that in the FoS work, black folks and white folks can be plantation owners all the same, and it isn't as heavily segregated as the real-life Deep South bayou might be.

So yes, the horror and atmosphere, indeed, come to a large degree from situations that are forbidden and taboo. Therefore, it is the prerogative of the Dungeon Master to decide, for their table, what qualifies as forbidden and taboo and how to convey it to their party. The various campaign setting materials published throughout the years offer guidance and inspiration for DMs on how to do so but should be viewed as guidelines and suggestions rather than ironclad rules. Should a party want to play something more one-dimensional and convenient? Go for it. Same for if they want to really play something Berserk-esque. So long as they're having fun, I think it's fine. Beyond Ravenloft, there are tons of other TTRPGs that can also accomplish a wide variety of atmospheres and fantasies you wish---Vaesen,Shadow of the Demon Lord, Symbaroum, Shiver, Blades in the Dark, World of Darkness old & new, Delta Green, Call of Cthulhu old & new (and time-period-based spinoffs), Achtung Cthulhu, Brindlewood Bay, Never Going Home, Candela Obscura, Deadlands, Dreadand so, so many more. The sky's the limit!

[Speedwagon]

It would be like Mozgus from berserk manga saying, "well there is no sin and punishment for, we are just here to distribute cool beverages - never mind our appearance and infamy. All is permitted so just go fight some monsters and come back and have a beach party as our divinely ordained morals is anything goes and its all fine."

https://berserk.fandom.com/wiki/Mozgus

The horror and atmosphere comes to a large degree from situations that are forbidden and taboo.

If this "Mozgus is the most feared and famous Holy See inquisitor." was "Mozgus is the most feared and famous Holy See inquisitor. But all sexual deviance is perfectly fine for Mozgus and for society in general." The entire thing would not function.

As for Berserk: I think equating that series (though I do love it very much) to Ravenloft is something of a false equivalence. If we're going by visions of gothic horror, then Berserk doesn't qualify. It's dark fantasy, with significant historical influences from Medieval Europe, while also containing themes of existentialism, nihilism, and other philosophies that postdate its setting's inspiration. Of course an inquisitor-type character like Mozgus wouldn't function with the description you gave, but Mozgus worked within the Conviction Arc as part of a layered conversation regarding religiosity, faith, taboos, transgressions, where to place one's faith, faith in oneself, 'opium of the masses,' and more. You could run such a character in a domain like Nova Vaasa, where the edicts of the Lawgiver are highly punitive and would hew closer to such thematic discussion. Or maybe Nidala, or arguably Pharazia or G'Henna. But for every Mozgus-type character, we see others within the very not-Catholic faith in Berserk (the Church of the Holy See) who aren't like him. A major part of the character Farnese's arc in Conviction was grappling with such questions, and we get more on the faith in the Vritannis segment of the Falcon of the Millennium Empire arc.

[Speedwagon]

Going back to the initial matter of queer representation in Ravenloft, as posted by TheArcaneWeirdo:

I think Kartakass would be an interesting and lovely locale for such representation. Whether it be 5e or 2e/3e, there are lots of performers there, and there's quite a history between the performing arts and queer people that can be tapped into. I could see queer theater kids there in 5e, or the start of drag performances of a sort in older lore as a new fad. Not to mention wolfweres being able to take on any appearance and Harkon Lukas having a male & female disguise.

[alhoon]

So people were shipping them beforehand!
I was trying for ages to figure out whether this was an intentionally queer-coded or commonly shipped duo that was simply finally canonized or a real change.

It was from before; According to the Kargatane, there were lines in the relevant Gaz that were omitted, which proved it.

[TheArcaneWeirdo]

Going back to the initial matter of queer representation in Ravenloft, as posted by TheArcaneWeirdo:

I think Kartakass would be an interesting and lovely locale for such representation. Whether it be 5e or 2e/3e, there are lots of performers there, and there's quite a history between the performing arts and queer people that can be tapped into. I could see queer theater kids there in 5e, or the start of drag performances of a sort in older lore as a new fad. Not to mention wolfweres being able to take on any appearance and Harkon Lukas having a male & female disguise.

Nice idea.
I actually started writing a story exploring the drag scene in Port-A-Lucine, but it makes sense for the phenomenon to have started in Kartakass.

[TheArcaneWeirdo]

So people were shipping them beforehand!
I was trying for ages to figure out whether this was an intentionally queer-coded or commonly shipped duo that was simply finally canonized or a real change.

It was from before; According to the Kargatane, there were lines in the relevant Gaz that were omitted, which proved it.

I need to see the documents.

[alhoon]

It is a post in this forum from several decades ago... Apparently there was a line in a Gaz that was like "My sweet Arthur" that was edited out before shipping, and someone from the authors found out in the final product that it was cut.